How do I hide this?

[Forsoothe!]

Who is Junz? Is somebody gonna steal them fabulous pictures?

I suspect, but don't know that there's more bark there than tree. I think, but don't know that you could ameliorate the reverse taper greatly just by carefully barbering the excess bark and repoting the tree deep enough to hide the shitty potting job that someone did five or ten years ago. Forcing a tree to live in a pot too shallow does not in and of itself make it a bonsai tree. Bonsai are first and foremost styled to look like something in particular. The are an abundance of styles suitable for Pines and that begins with appropriate potting. This one is oroka na, 愚かな in Japanese. This tree has been robbed of growth for as long as it has been in that pot. For Shame!

 

[Adair M]

Who is Junz? Is somebody gonna steal them fabulous pictures?

I suspect, but don't know that there's more bark there than tree. I think, but don't know that you could ameliorate the reverse taper greatly just by carefully barbering the excess bark and repoting the tree deep enough to hide the shitty potting job that someone did five or ten years ago. Forcing a tree to live in a pot too shallow does not in and of itself make it a bonsai tree. Bonsai are first and foremost styled to look like something in particular. The are an abundance of styles suitable for Pines and that begins with appropriate potting. This one is oroka na, 愚かな in Japanese. This tree has been robbed of growth for as long as it has been in that pot. For Shame!

wow... your ignorance is just astounding!

While I’m not a fan of that pot for that tree, the size of the pot has nothing to do with the bark of that tree. Cork Bark JBP grow ‘wings’ of bark. The wings are far thicker than ordinary JBP bark, and are the defining characteristic of the cultivar. It occurs naturally, but doesn’t pass down to the seedlings of cork bark JBP. They are propogated by grafting. The rootstock is almost always regular JBP, which never develops the thick bark. The scion does, and there is almost always an abrupt caliper change at the graft union.

Cork bark JBP rarely make good classical bonsai because of the reverse taper that almost always develops. But, some people like them for the “novelty factor”. They’re unusual and different, so lots of people like to have a couple just because they’re unusual.

But... removing the cork bark??? I mean, that bark is the sole reason to grow them! Removing the bark is literally the equivalent of cutting off your nose to spite your face!

 

[Potawatomi13]

you could ameliorate the reverse taper greatly just by carefully barbering the excess bark and repotting the tree deep enough

Much agreement to this thought! Also roots exist just as I said they did.

Closer observation shows roots already there. These could be spread out to sides and developed with somewhat deeper planting

Reiteration of original thought seems best idea. In addition would cultivate low branch/trunk for added interest to straight uninteresting main trunk. Perhaps lean tree slight amount to left(as seen in picture)removing verticality. Wiring branches before "bark" forms will save bark and broken branches later on.

 

[Potawatomi13]

But... removing the cork bark??? I mean, that bark is the sole reason to grow them! Removing the bark is literally the equivalent of cutting off your nose to spite your face

Foresoothe not ignorant at all I suspect! On THAT tree modifying excessive bark at very bottom would be great improvement of appearance. Bark continues to develop later on anyway perhaps more proportionately. Not all feel such difference is worthy of OVERLY perverse "novelty" regardless of your personal prejudice.

 

[leatherback]

It looks like that you can improve things a little by, at the next repot, spread the roots shown in the last 2 closeups. You could consider putting a wire just below those roots, and burrying that in half an inch of substrate in the hope that more roots sprout, but I would be hesitant as the bark would start decaying.

As indicated above: The bark wings are the core interest of this cultivar/variety. If you feel you need to trim the bark to like the tree, then better sell the tee and get a regular black pine. I am pretty certain this tree was not dirtcheap and you can have a nice started black pine for a similar price.

Mine has the same challenge, although less obvious as I was able to select from a batch of 10 the best (First to the table in a sale):

 

[Forsoothe!]

We can't see the chop on this, but this tree is obviously pretty old for its size. It seems odd that one this old would still be in a plastic pot. I suspect it was once a nice shohin that was damaged or maybe chopped out of ignorance and at the same time put in this lower pot exposing the lower section. That must have been five or more years ago. Maybe dropped and broken canopy and pot? The problem is going to come with "exactly" how do you carve this bark down without permanently ruining the appearance? It looks like the sheets would come off in one big chunk and the inverse section would just travel up the trunk. It may be that a hook instrument used to snag the upper edge of any small sheet and pulling downward one thin sheet at a time, being careful to not snag too deeply, might work. It's most important to try very hard to maintain the separateness of the sheets so that it doesn't take forever to start looking normal. That might be best done over years rather than in one sitting. Any kind of grinding tool is going to leave the surface either smooth or artificially grooved-looking for a very long time, -glaringly different from the rest of the tree. In the worst case, this tree needs to go back in the ground and start all over again after all the bark is made as uniform as it should be. That's the only way to get the growth rate up and age the bark with the elements at the same time.

Ontario is a big place and goes from zone 6 on Erie's north shore to the Arctic tree line. If the tree can't go in the ground, maybe it should be traded to a southern team?

 

[leatherback]

It seems odd that one this old would still be in a plastic pot. I suspect it was once a nice shohin that was damaged or maybe chopped out of ignorance and at the same time put in this lower pot exposing the lower section. That must have been five or more years ago. Maybe dropped and broken canopy and pot? T

Nah. This is how they come from Japan.

the sheets

which sheets do you expect to find

 

[Adair M]

Foresoothe not ignorant at all I suspect! On THAT tree modifying excessive bark at very bottom would be great improvement of appearance. Bark continues to develop later on anyway perhaps more proportionately. Not all feel such difference is worthy of OVERLY perverse "novelty" regardless of your personal prejudice.

How many Cork Bark JBP have you ever seen?

I have a friend who has hundreds! He collects the various cultivars and grafts them. They ALL do something like this. The different cultivars cork up a little differently, but they all have an abrupt change in caliper at the graft union.


The typical way to hide it is to plant it deeper in the pot, and use moss to hide the thin section of the trunk. There would be no surface roots visible.

 

[LanceMac10]

The typical way to hide it is to plant it deeper in the pot, and use moss to hide the thin section of the trunk. There would be no surface roots visible.

This. Who knows? Thirty years it might just ground layer itself.
Had one with the same graft union, some ok roots....but yeah, they just don't match up, ever.....Killed it a couple years ago at re-pot. Looked like it was in the pot for ages with heavily compacted soil....and almost no roots. Should have gently teased but most just fell away.....

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- Welcome to our store! Shop our selection of trees - Japanese Maple, Satsuki Azaleas, Japanese Black Pines, Trident Maple, Itoigawa Juniper, White Pine, Ginko, Chojubai, Ginko

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So, I figure I'll try something more expensive to intensify the focus. Surprising how much money you can save not having to pay the babysitter for close to a year and about the same with no restaurant slaughters of the drink list......


Corkers don't seem as vigorous as a standard JBP. Is this so?

 

[junmilo]

Who is Junz? Is somebody gonna steal them fabulous pictures?

I suspect, but don't know that there's more bark there than tree. I think, but don't know that you could ameliorate the reverse taper greatly just by carefully barbering the excess bark and repoting the tree deep enough to hide the shitty potting job that someone did five or ten years ago. Forcing a tree to live in a pot too shallow does not in and of itself make it a bonsai tree. Bonsai are first and foremost styled to look like something in particular. The are an abundance of styles suitable for Pines and that begins with appropriate potting. This one is oroka na, 愚かな in Japanese. This tree has been robbed of growth for as long as it has been in that pot. For Shame!

Thank you for the constructive criticism and opinion of the tree, pot...etc. These cork JBP (specifically this one) have been in this specific blue plastic pots for 5.5 to 6 years...I have larger..better pots for them.

Here are some photos of the many that me and my father have up here in the cold white north. All are in the blue plastic, which will be changed this spring.

 

[Adair M]

This. Who knows? Thirty years it might just ground layer itself.
Had one with the same graft union, some ok roots....but yeah, they just don't match up, ever.....Killed it a couple years ago at re-pot. Looked like it was in the pot for ages with heavily compacted soil....and almost no roots. Should have gently teased but most just fell away.....

Bonsai Import CompanyONLY THE FINEST - Welcome to our store! Shop our selection of trees - Japanese Maple, Satsuki Azaleas, Japanese Black Pines, Trident Maple, Itoigawa Juniper, White Pine, Ginko, Chojubai, Ginko

- Welcome to our store! Shop our selection of trees - Japanese Maple, Satsuki Azaleas, Japanese Black Pines, Trident Maple, Itoigawa Juniper, White Pine, Ginko, Chojubai, Ginko

bonsaiimportcompany.com

So, I figure I'll try something more expensive to intensify the focus. Surprising how much money you can save not having to pay the babysitter for close to a year and about the same with no restaurant slaughters of the drink list......


Corkers don't seem as vigorous as a standard JBP. Is this so?

They not nearly as strong as regular JBP. They put all their energy into growing bark, not wood. In Japan where they were found, they were found lying over, where they had fallen over due to the weight of the bark. While technically they are “double flush”, doing it several years in a row will severely weaken them. So, at best, you can decandle every other year. Maybe. Some find you shouldn’t decandle them at all. The bark grows quickly. In a couple of years. You can’t wire the old corked branches, the bark will delaminate off if you bend the branch. You can wire the new shoots before the cork forms. They don’t back bud much because the cork forms and covers the areas where new buds would grow.

There have been a few rare trees that were propagated by cuttings. And these wont have the reverse taper issue. But, as I said, they’re rare. They typically don’t grow from cuttings. And sometimes, a seedling will exhibit the cork bark growth pattern, and of course, there is no reverse taper issue with those, either. They’re even rarer than the cuttings. Boon has one of the seedlings. At least we think it is. It’s old, imported from Japan.

@Brian Van Fleet has worked with Corkers more than I have. He still has a few, I believe. I used to have some, but I avoid them now as I prefer more classic bonsai to the oddballs. (Notable exception: my Mino Yatsabusa Trident!). He has posted several threads about his experiences with them here on BNut.

The one @leatherback posted is a typical Corker where the narrow section is buried under the soil. That’s really about as good as it gets. (Boon’s tree, again, is a notable exception. I wish I had a photo to share, but I don’t. I’ll ask him to send me a photo.).

@Forsoothe! ‘s idea to gently thin the bark is a disastrous idea. The bark falls off in chunks all by itself! Any pressure applied to a section of bark is likely not separate off a layer, but pull a whole chunk off where it’s attached to the cambium. In fact, it’s not unusual to find chunks of bark laying on top of the soil after a hard rainstorm. I used to glue chunks of bark back on to my Corkers when this would happen. In fact, it’s a common practice to use thin wires to wrap around the trunk just to hold the bark on! Really thin wire, loosely applied, no pressure, and removed when showing the tree. Just there to keep the bark from falling off when it’s watered, rained on, and the wind blows.

Look, I’m a pine guy. I’m giving you the honest truth based upon my experience of messing with JBP for 50 years. I’m not prejudiced, I’m just relaying the facts, based upon my experience.

 

[junmilo]

It looks like that you can improve things a little by, at the next repot, spread the roots shown in the last 2 closeups. You could consider putting a wire just below those roots, and burrying that in half an inch of substrate in the hope that more roots sprout, but I would be hesitant as the bark would start decaying.

As indicated above: The bark wings are the core interest of this cultivar/variety. If you feel you need to trim the bark to like the tree, then better sell the tee and get a regular black pine. I am pretty certain this tree was not dirtcheap and you can have a nice started black pine for a similar price.

Mine has the same challenge, although less obvious as I was able to select from a batch of 10 the best (First to the table in a sale):
View attachment 348642

Thank you for the example photo of your tree.

 

[CWTurner]

CW

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I’m not nearly as old as Adair, but yes; I’ve been growing corkers for around 13 years. I haven’t bought one in 10 because like he said, they’re oddballs and they don’t really lend themselves to traditional styling or training techniques. They’re fussy and weak, and I do not summer candle-cut mine at all. I’m down to 2 in pots and one in the ground, and that’s one or two too many.

To the OP, changing the planting angle, or adding back sections of bark down below the graft are good tricks to use. I save bark from pruned branches and have glued it on in places to soften the effect of reverse taper, and have also used straight pins with good results.

I haven’t seen all the posts, but the recommendation to actually remove bark is a really bad suggestion.

 

[junmilo]

I’m not nearly as old as Adair, but yes; I’ve been growing corkers for around 13 years. I haven’t bought one in 10 because like he said, they’re oddballs and they don’t really lend themselves to traditional styling or training techniques. They’re fussy and weak, and I do not summer candle-cut mine at all. I’m down to 2 in pots and one in the ground, and that’s one or two too many.

To the OP, changing the planting angle, or adding back sections of bark down below the graft are good tricks to use. I save bark from pruned branches and have glued it on in places to soften the effect of reverse taper, and have also used straight pins with good results.

I haven’t seen all the posts, but the recommendation to actually remove bark is a really bad suggestion.

Thank you Brian

 

[junmilo]

They not nearly as strong as regular JBP. They put all their energy into growing bark, not wood. In Japan where they were found, they were found lying over, where they had fallen over due to the weight of the bark. While technically they are “double flush”, doing it several years in a row will severely weaken them. So, at best, you can decandle every other year. Maybe. Some find you shouldn’t decandle them at all. The bark grows quickly. In a couple of years. You can’t wire the old corked branches, the bark will delaminate off if you bend the branch. You can wire the new shoots before the cork forms. They don’t back bud much because the cork forms and covers the areas where new buds would grow.

There have been a few rare trees that were propagated by cuttings. And these wont have the reverse taper issue. But, as I said, they’re rare. They typically don’t grow from cuttings. And sometimes, a seedling will exhibit the cork bark growth pattern, and of course, there is no reverse taper issue with those, either. They’re even rarer than the cuttings. Boon has one of the seedlings. At least we think it is. It’s old, imported from Japan.

@Brian Van Fleet has worked with Corkers more than I have. He still has a few, I believe. I used to have some, but I avoid them now as I prefer more classic bonsai to the oddballs. (Notable exception: my Mino Yatsabusa Trident!). He has posted several threads about his experiences with them here on BNut.

The one @leatherback posted is a typical Corker where the narrow section is buried under the soil. That’s really about as good as it gets. (Boon’s tree, again, is a notable exception. I wish I had a photo to share, but I don’t. I’ll ask him to send me a photo.).

@Forsoothe! ‘s idea to gently thin the bark is a disastrous idea. The bark falls off in chunks all by itself! Any pressure applied to a section of bark is likely not separate off a layer, but pull a whole chunk off where it’s attached to the cambium. In fact, it’s not unusual to find chunks of bark laying on top of the soil after a hard rainstorm. I used to glue chunks of bark back on to my Corkers when this would happen. In fact, it’s a common practice to use thin wires to wrap around the trunk just to hold the bark on! Really thin wire, loosely applied, no pressure, and removed when showing the tree. Just there to keep the bark from falling off when it’s watered, rained on, and the wind blows.

Look, I’m a pine guy. I’m giving you the honest truth based upon my experience of messing with JBP for 50 years. I’m not prejudiced, I’m just relaying the facts, based upon my experience.

Thank you.

 

[William N. Valavanis]

Simply remove two small pieces of the winged cork bark from the upper trunk and glue them to the bottom of the thin trunk.

 

[just.wing.it]

Simply remove two small pieces of the winged cork bark from the upper trunk and glue them to the bottom of the thin trunk.

The ol' mysterious secret techniques of bonsai!

 

[William N. Valavanis]

Before and after photos of one of my student's pine during a workshop. Wood glue was used and the wire was removed the next day.

 

[junmilo]

Before and after photos of one of my student's pine during a workshop. Wood glue was used and the wire was removed the next day.

Very interesting...will definitely do this....thank you very much!!!!.