Hoping for advice/critiques on my "branch-structure building" approach :)

[SU2]

My example is of a pine, but pretty much all trees make pads, and the general concept is the same. (Some styles, like broom style, don’t make pads).

But if you want to make effective pads, the layering approach is the way to go.

Yeah I noted that upon seeing it, have had it hammered-into my brain that I shouldn't be following that exactly when doing flowering deciduous broadleafs *but* IMO there's so much carryover (and IYO obviously ;D ) I like to think of my approach to this specimen as similar in how I want the branch-structure to go in terms of branch-flow / branch-lines, I just want to 'squish it' so it's more compact & hugs the trunk tighter than is desired for most other trees (almost the stereotypical "bush of flowers on a bougie stump", only I want it to look good defoliated instead of just being a mess LOL)

One more thing...

When building pads, occasionally put in a “top branch”. That’s an interior branch that does not go left or right, but runs in the same direction as the underlying primary branch. This can be trained to lay directly above the primary branch. It will provide height to the pad, and when the time comes to cut back the primary branch when it grows too long (as they all will, eventually), you have a ready-made branch to take its place.

That's, that's brilliant!! Although I didn't know that "they all will, eventually", I had kinda just thought that as the branch grew, newer buds from lower would 'step up' and it'd be a perpetual process, not something where a branch has a lifespan as you describe (is that always the case? That just doesn't sound right, I mean when I look at trees like the one I'll post here, it's hard to imagine they're chopping branches off it seems they're just developed indefinitely:

I guess I always thought the furthest-back branches eventually became tips as the thing grew-out, do you mean that when caring for something like ^ that you would actually be removing primaries, or did you mean some degree of tertiary-branching, something halfway-back from the canopy-edge to the primaries' collars?

PS- this is my favorite 'tree' of all time, anyway it gives a great idea of the compact-ness I'm aiming for, really want to go as dense&tight as possible:

 

[sorce]

"Energy wasting" and "bud removing" is all I need to hear to know we are essentially on the same page.

This...

sustainable

I think Ryan explains it better somewhere else.

The 2 most important points of sustainable is the short term...which would be one not shading another.

And the long term, which is being able to cut back and start over all together, to certain points, when necessary.

These are unbreakable rules IMO.

Unless we don't care at all about the longevity of our art, at which point, we should quit.

I always sign out cuz Grimmy did and cuz I want to feed my family with this name.

Sorce

 

[River's Edge]

The best reference i have found for designing and developing various forms of branch structure in both deciduous and conifers is contained in chapter 7, entitled Branch Structure, page 103-121. Title is Principles of Bonsai Design, author David De Groot, published 2015.
Contains excellent diagrams and step by step illustrations.
It is important to note that various species lend themselves to different branch structure and or pad development. There is not one basic approach in the Bonsai World. Some elements of sustainability and ability to rejuvenate are critical as pointed out by others.

 

[choppychoppy]

Ok brotha. This is terrible pruning I have to be honest. Where is the taper? Where is the layering of branches? This is a clumping of all the same size branches all in a pile. With leaves, the upper sections will shade out and kill off the lower sections of this pile of foliage. Look there are reasons for the pruning techniques. Lay out your hand. Make the first set of branches look like that. Then the next set of branches above that forming the upper part of the proper pad should be MUCH smaller and thinner. The pile you have shown needs to be reduced by 60%. Leave the lower section and spread the branches. Those stupid zip ties are screwing you. They are holding branches together when you want to spread them out. Cut the entire upper section off and regrow softer growth.

 

[SU2]

"Energy wasting" and "bud removing" is all I need to hear to know we are essentially on the same page.

This...
I think Ryan explains it better somewhere else.

The 2 most important points of sustainable is the short term...which would be one not shading another.

And the long term, which is being able to cut back and start over all together, to certain points, when necessary.

These are unbreakable rules IMO.

Unless we don't care at all about the longevity of our art, at which point, we should quit.

I always sign out cuz Grimmy did and cuz I want to feed my family with this name.

Sorce

I don't think I'd ever really thought of it that way but I always left the buds at the bases of my V's in the canopy, always found them interesting because they just sit there doing nothing for so long but that makes sense so far as 'insurance' for replacing other branches later, I think I'll actually start keeping more branches in strategic locations for this purpose with the caveat that I can just dump/sacrifice them later (always better to have extras than not-enough!)

It is important to note that various species lend themselves to different branch structure and or pad development. There is not one basic approach in the Bonsai World. Some elements of sustainability and ability to rejuvenate are critical as pointed out by others.

Very well-said, for instance the (outstanding) diagram earlier on page 1 isn't something to be copied as-is for the type of canopy I'm making here, although there are some core principles that carry-over regardless for instance obviously inverse-taper is always a no-no but other things are constants too like the 2//4//8//16//32//64 twigging-breakdown in a canopy, my reason for making the thread was that I was afraid my 2-branch to 4-branch, and 4 to 8 branch, splits were occurring too-far from the trunking, that things needed to be brought back more aggressively than I'd done (thanks for the book reco btw am going to check costs!)

Those stupid zip ties are screwing you. They are holding branches together when you want to spread them out

Lay out your hand. Make the first set of branches look like that.

That is where it'll be eventually, the reason I'm doing it this way is because if the branches would split too-far on their own then I'll intervene and bind them for the first 50%, even 75% of their development (which they're still in right now), once this is in a show-container there will be more of the spread you're worried is restricted

Then the next set of branches above that forming the upper part of the proper pad should be MUCH smaller and thinner. The pile you have shown needs to be reduced by 60%.

Thanks!! This had been grown for years getting just 'silhouette hard-prunes', there was never really a goal or shape in-mind so no pads were ever attempted until the process I'm currently doing right now, I definitely had the upper section too-large relative to the lower (and that was applying through the canopy- or still does, will go out in a second to rectify that!) it's reallllly cool to finally have enough branch mass to work-with to actually consider shaping!!

Cut the entire upper section off and regrow softer growth.

Unsure what you mean on this, cut off how much? It becomes a flat block of wood realllly fast so surely you don't mean a new trunk line? I know there's too-many 'peaks' up top and will be removing at least one of them in the coming year (have been trying to choose which one for over a year now, figured there's no rush!) but am unsure what you mean because I can't imagine I'm you mean what I'm interpreting from 'entire' (also, 'softer' growth? Unsure about that either, all the growth is soft at first / hard after a short while, that one confused me as well )

 

[choppychoppy]

Unsure what you mean on this, cut off how much?

The upper section of the 'pad' where I made the yellow Xs. Regrow the small shoots I drew in - keep this kind of stacking and balance in sizes.

 

[River's Edge]

I don't think I'd ever really thought of it that way but I always left the buds at the bases of my V's in the canopy, always found them interesting because they just sit there doing nothing for so long but that makes sense so far as 'insurance' for replacing other branches later, I think I'll actually start keeping more branches in strategic locations for this purpose with the caveat that I can just dump/sacrifice them later (always better to have extras than not-enough!)


Very well-said, for instance the (outstanding) diagram earlier on page 1 isn't something to be copied as-is for the type of canopy I'm making here, although there are some core principles that carry-over regardless for instance obviously inverse-taper is always a no-no but other things are constants too like the 2//4//8//16//32//64 twigging-breakdown in a canopy, my reason for making the thread was that I was afraid my 2-branch to 4-branch, and 4 to 8 branch, splits were occurring too-far from the trunking, that things needed to be brought back more aggressively than I'd done (thanks for the book reco btw am going to check costs!)





That is where it'll be eventually, the reason I'm doing it this way is because if the branches would split too-far on their own then I'll intervene and bind them for the first 50%, even 75% of their development (which they're still in right now), once this is in a show-container there will be more of the spread you're worried is restricted


Thanks!! This had been grown for years getting just 'silhouette hard-prunes', there was never really a goal or shape in-mind so no pads were ever attempted until the process I'm currently doing right now, I definitely had the upper section too-large relative to the lower (and that was applying through the canopy- or still does, will go out in a second to rectify that!) it's reallllly cool to finally have enough branch mass to work-with to actually consider shaping!!


Unsure what you mean on this, cut off how much? It becomes a flat block of wood realllly fast so surely you don't mean a new trunk line? I know there's too-many 'peaks' up top and will be removing at least one of them in the coming year (have been trying to choose which one for over a year now, figured there's no rush!) but am unsure what you mean because I can't imagine I'm you mean what I'm interpreting from 'entire' (also, 'softer' growth? Unsure about that either, all the growth is soft at first / hard after a short while, that one confused me as well )

The cost i believe is in the $30 range CAD so less USD. I expect.
With branch structure development it is not just the division principles as you have correctly surmised. The other dimensions to consider are branch length, thickness, taper, direction, movement and position.
One obvious example is when the pad structure requires branches at various elevations within the pads, not just the basic splayed finger form.
Another example would be when the branch structure calls for side to side, then top and bottom branching as the main branch divides.
This is one of the best features in Davids book. He identifies patterns and build sequence very clearly!

 

[SU2]

The cost i believe is in the $30 range CAD so less USD. I expect.
With branch structure development it is not just the division principles as you have correctly surmised. The other dimensions to consider are branch length, thickness, taper, direction, movement and position.
One obvious example is when the pad structure requires branches at various elevations within the pads, not just the basic splayed finger form.
Another example would be when the branch structure calls for side to side, then top and bottom branching as the main branch divides.
This is one of the best features in Davids book. He identifies patterns and build sequence very clearly!

How well-read are you on this subject if you don't mind me asking? I've got a rudimentary background in 'aesthetic theory' so to speak so for a while now have been dying to find something applying to bonsai but that was actually to be respected / esteemed and I've had zero clue how to tell if Johnny's book is worthwhile or not yknow? The way you speak of this book does make me think it's right up my alley, I mean as you (I think!) alluded to earlier it's not even that branch structure is homogeneous I mean it's not just the overarching principles but the myriad ways they have to be bent/worked-with/etc for the infinite styles & forms that our canopies can take, would love a good, in-depth book that just really digs-in to this as comprehensively as possible, am sick of growing branches the wrong way and having to cut them off ROFL!

The upper section of the 'pad' where I made the yellow Xs. Regrow the small shoots I drew in - keep this kind of stacking and balance in sizes.

Oh I get you it read as-if you meant the top of the specimen itself (its top-most branching), I did go and get way more aggressive up there in fact I did so on a bunch of other trees too because top-growth is always easy & it shades-out lower growth, am glad you'd put it that way as it's self-evident but easy enough to overlook, with such strong-growers I'm thinking I should be erring more towards over-aggressive cut-backs of the top 1/3rd of any canopy (or any pad, really) and consider it not just a "from the trunk outward" development but a "from the bottom up" development with respects to branch-orientation.

BTW the Juniper you gave me is doing awesome, I can't remember if I nutted-up enough to tell you that I was afraid I cracked some cambium on it while bending but it's been well over a month since doing that and everything down-stream of that area is still actively growing (will be leaving that raffia on til spring I don't even want to see under there until it's grown/healed itself a bit!), should I be expecting this guy to grow all winter here in 10b? With how strongly it's growing right now (when native BC's, Maples, crape myrtles etc are going into dormancy) it has me thinking it'll be one of those grows-slowly-all-winter things, hoping so!! Going to up-size its container at least once more next year in-pursuit of quicker thickening of that first V where they cascade up&over, I've changed the angling of it a bit I don't want to show it til things have set & restraints are removed but think you'll like what I did, think it checks the "attractive" and "original" boxes quite well thanks again for the specimen it's been a focal point every time I'm browsing my garden

 

[SU2]

Principles of Bonsai Design, author David De Groot, published 2015

Something's wrong I can't find *anything* for this, just went to find it and something's wrong are you sure on the name?

 

[0soyoung]

There are 5 used copies for sale on Amazon - lowest price = $104

 

[River's Edge]

Something's wrong I can't find *anything* for this, just went to find it and something's wrong are you sure on the name?

I purchased mine directly from the author at the Artisans Cup in Portland.