Help With Stunted Pine Seedlings

[czaczaja]

There seems to be something seriously wrong with my pine seedlings.
They have germinated around march and have 'grown' well until around August.
They have made no visible progress since, they are potted in a well draining soil and get plenty of light.
I have watched some of @Eric Schrader vids where his 9 month old pines are a thickness of a pencil and not even comparable to mine.
All help welcome guys

 

[bluone23]

Yeah, I have the same issue with some jbp.

 

[leatherback]

Eric is of course in California.. My black pines [

] are not a lot bigger than yours after the first year.
They do look a lot healthier though. Full fun and heat is good for these. Shaded / humid not so good.

 

[czaczaja]

Eric is of course in California.. My black pines [

] are not a lot bigger than yours after the first year.
They do look a lot healthier though. Full fun and heat is good for these. Shaded / humid not so good.

View attachment 522598

Thanks Jelle! Hopefully they're still salvageable. They've turned purple as we'll a few months ago, hope its just the cold. I live in Ireland so we only really have one season here

 

[leatherback]

I live in Ireland so we only really have one season here

Nah. You have the wet and cold, and the wetter and colder, right?

 

[czaczaja]

Nah. You have the wet and cold, and the wetter and colder, right?

"The shite and the slightly less shite"

 

[Paradox]

Do you have these inside your house?

 

[czaczaja]

Do you have these inside your house?

They were outside but I brought them into the greenhouse recently. They are under a growlight since we don't really get the proper light intensity outdoors and they have a fan providing air circulation.

 

[Paradox]

They were outside but I brought them into the greenhouse recently. They are under a growlight since we don't really get the proper light intensity outdoors and they have a fan providing air circulation.

How warm is the greenhouse?

 

[czaczaja]

How warm is the greenhouse?

15 day 5 at night. 60-40 for the American friends

 

[Paradox]

15 day 5 at night. 60-40 for the American friends

I think part of the problem is that these are too warm.
Scots are mountain pines and need cold winters.
Not sure how often you are watering them but the fan blowing on them might also be drying them out.

 

[czaczaja]

I think part of the problem is that these are too warm.
Scots are mountain pines and need cold winters.
Not sure how often you are watering them but the fan blowing on them might also be drying them out.

@leatherback has great success with full sun/heat and says shaded/humid is not so good for pines.
I only started using the fan 2 weeks ago because I have noticed that they weren't drying out fast enough and started growing algae on top. And I wasn't watering them much at all.
If anything, I was thinking they have it too cold. Some needles have turned purple and I've read that this is normal and due to cold (I've had 2 nights of -3)
I hope they will regain the vigor come spring

 

[JeffS73]

Hey Czaczaja,

They do all look small for Scots and a few are definitely on the ropes. But others do look promising! Did you seedling cut them? This definitely sets them back, especially Scots. Check your drainage. Is there moss in the substrate? I wonder if everything is just staying too wet. If there's drain holes in the corners of the pot, you can tilt the tray to help.

I think the greenhouse is a good idea.

 

[czaczaja]

Hey Czaczaja,

They do all look small for Scots and a few are definitely on the ropes. But others do look promising! Did you seedling cut them? This definitely sets them back, especially Scots. Check your drainage. Is there moss in the substrate? I wonder if everything is just staying too wet. If there's drain holes in the corners of the pot, you can tilt the tray to help.

I think the greenhouse is a good idea.

Thanks! They're not cuttings, just whatever came up last spring stopped growing around August. The substrate is horticultural grit mixed with coco coir. They are not in standing water in any way, just substrate stays moist for longer than I'd like.

 

[Paradox]

@leatherback has great success with full sun/heat and says shaded/humid is not so good for pines.
I only started using the fan 2 weeks ago because I have noticed that they weren't drying out fast enough and started growing algae on top. And I wasn't watering them much at all.
If anything, I was thinking they have it too cold. Some needles have turned purple and I've read that this is normal and due to cold (I've had 2 nights of -3)
I hope they will regain the vigor come spring

@leatherback is correct that full sun is best for pines during the summer growing season.
And yes, if the soil is constantly wet, that will cause big problems.
They are temperate trees and need winter dormancy which means cold.

You do realize that scots pines grow in some areas that get pretty cold in the winter?
Seedlings that sprouted earlier this year will get buried in feet of snow during their first winter where they will have little to no light at all.
Cold is not your problem here.

Either the soil is staying too wet and causing root problems or your trees are drying out.
Hard to tell which from the pictures but from what you have said, seems like too wet right now.
However you said this started in August so can't be sure what started it since that was months ago.

If you dont figure it out and fix the problem, Im sorry to say that these probably wont make it until spring

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Purple and yellow combined are usually a sign of waterlogged soils like Jeff says.
My seedlings are slow to start as well, usually. But that's because I want them that way; the smaller they stay for the first year, the more reason I have to not do the risky seedling cutting. They stay small anyways and the radial root system develops pretty well in organic soil.

15 degrees C is a bit on the high side, but it's like that over here as well. Since they're in a greenhouse, consider not watering them for a while and letting the soil dry up before you water again. Maybe take them out of the tray too, to get a little more aeration underneath.

My seedling JBP have looked like that a lot, and they always made it to the next year. But I never managed to get them past the 3rd because they don't like my watering habits. Scots pines do great though!
In our climates we have to play with the hands we're dealt and this means that the "short" growing season can be challenging. If you have the space, please do consider putting a couple seedlings in the ground. I was pretty surprised to see my JRP become thumb thick in a year and a half and they produced a second flush on their own.

 

[penumbra]

I am completely with Paradox on this. First, get them outside. Zone 9 is rather balmy for Scots. Full sun while growing and let them dry out. Expect nothing more from them this year, they want to sleep. Trying to keep them going is sure death. The damage may well be done on some of them, but you are not going to know until spring. Good luck.

 

[czaczaja]

Purple and yellow combined are usually a sign of waterlogged soils like Jeff says.
My seedlings are slow to start as well, usually. But that's because I want them that way; the smaller they stay for the first year, the more reason I have to not do the risky seedling cutting. They stay small anyways and the radial root system develops pretty well in organic soil.

15 degrees C is a bit on the high side, but it's like that over here as well. Since they're in a greenhouse, consider not watering them for a while and letting the soil dry up before you water again. Maybe take them out of the tray too, to get a little more aeration underneath.

My seedling JBP have looked like that a lot, and they always made it to the next year. But I never managed to get them past the 3rd because they don't like my watering habits. Scots pines do great though!
In our climates we have to play with the hands we're dealt and this means that the "short" growing season can be challenging. If you have the space, please do consider putting a couple seedlings in the ground. I was pretty surprised to see my JRP become thumb thick in a year and a half and they produced a second flush on their own.

I am in the process of organizing my allotment into a ground-growing plot of land for bonsai so I will be planting lots of stuff in spring. I just wanted the seedlings to get established for a year before planting them.
Ill get them outside and hope for the best. Thanks all!

 

[leatherback]

My apologies. I took these for black pine seedlings, considering the reference to black pines. For a scots in N Europe they are very weak And yes, I would keep these outside, not in a greenhouse. Protected fom rain where possible

 

[czaczaja]

My apologies. I took these for black pine seedlings, considering the reference to black pines. For a scots in N Europe they are very weak And yes, I would keep these outside, not in a greenhouse. Protected fom rain where possible

Any particular reason why protect from rain? They are native to this country and it rains like 400 days a year here