Help with eastern red cedar

Bonsai_beginner98

Bonsai_beginner98

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Hey peeps, looking for some advice/guidance.

Been given what looks like a eastern red cedar (I'm not 100% sure, still a beginner) and she's abit on the tall side.

She's clearly a lovely looking tree and don't want to kill her. I'm leaning towards air layering the top section and leaving the rest to grow to become more a parent plant for cuttings, just wanted to know if it was even possible to do so?

After a little research, they are classed as a juniper so I believe it could be possible but being a beginner I don't want to kill such a big and healthy looking tree due to my lack of knowledge.

Any advice/guidance is much appreciated.

If it helps I'm in the West Midlands, UK.

Thanks for reading.
 
I've attached a photo if it helps, just to clarify, she does not live inside, purely brought her in just for the photo, she back outside where she belongs.
 

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Bonsai_beginner98 said:
Hey peeps, looking for some advice/guidance.

Been given what looks like a eastern red cedar (I'm not 100% sure, still a beginner) and she's abit on the tall side.

She's clearly a lovely looking tree and don't want to kill her. I'm leaning towards air layering the top section and leaving the rest to grow to become more a parent plant for cuttings, just wanted to know if it was even possible to do so?

After a little research, they are classed as a juniper so I believe it could be possible but being a beginner I don't want to kill such a big and healthy looking tree due to my lack of knowledge.

Any advice/guidance is much appreciated.

If it helps I'm in the West Midlands, UK.

Thanks for reading.
Click to expand...
As said above, this isn't an Eastern Red Cedar. ERC are native here in my area and grow everywhere. It's likely a fir, probably a Douglas fir. You're better off. ERC is difficult, mostly useless, bonsai material.

I wouldn't be optimistic about air layering it. Air layering conifers is not as easy as it is with deciduous trees.

Design wise, it's up to you mostly. Do you want a tall thinner tree, or a shorter, more powerful looking shorter tree? You can think about those design decisions this fall and winter. I'd spend the time learning to care for the tree. It will need some attention to watering going into winter and possibly during the winter as this species is likely hardy with no protection in your zone in the U.K.
 
Thanks peeps, like I said, totally new to bonsai (started with a ficus last week 😅) but couldn't say no to free trees 😁.

With how big it is, I'm really not sure on design but have plenty of time to work that out I suppose. Leaning more towards shorter, more bulky, bit like the top after where the trunk kinks to the left.

If need be, she can just be a parent plant for now and try rooting some cuttings from her in autumn/winter. I suppose I could even chop the top off and try grafting them into the lower portion on the tree, if that's possible?

Will start looking into caring for her properly, don't want to lose this lovely tree
 
As a beginner myself, I have suggestions. I've lost more trees than I have turned into bonsai material. You've already made a great choice coming to this forum. There are so many people here who have decades of experience; I'd say you probably have access to a couple centuries worth.
Don't get too ambitious in the beginning. Bonsai is an art of patience. Grafting, cuttings, air layers, etc. are advanced level projects, especially for conifer. I've been able to get cuttings started, but have yet to accomplish a successful air layer. Deciduous are much easier in most cases.
All trees prefer outdoors. Tropicals like your ficus can tolerate indoor conditions with enough light, but keep them outdoors as long as the temperatures are above ±45°F/7°C. They are great learner trees.
Search these threads. As I said above, there is a wealth of advice, knowledge and bonsai wisdom here. Most of the questions you have are already answered for other newbies who came long before us, and are now able to give advice as they were given.
95% of the people here are excited to share, and will readily help you. If you can't find the information you're looking for, ask, and I guarantee you'll get an answer. But be prepared to listen, even if it's not what you hoped to hear.
Last thing I can think of is to remember that you can't read tone in digital words, as I'm sure you already know. Sometimes people get shaken up by perceiving malice or "talking down." Don't be that guy. 😁 We don't know how much experience you have with growing plants, specifically trees, so any suggestions are given with the hope for your success.
WELCOME To the Community! Have fun!
 
BonsaiManic said:
As a beginner myself, I have suggestions. I've lost more trees than I have turned into bonsai material. You've already made a great choice coming to this forum. There are so many people here who have decades of experience; I'd say you probably have access to a couple centuries worth.
Don't get too ambitious in the beginning. Bonsai is an art of patience. Grafting, cuttings, air layers, etc. are advanced level projects, especially for conifer. I've been able to get cuttings started, but have yet to accomplish a successful air layer. Deciduous are much easier in most cases.
All trees prefer outdoors. Tropicals like your ficus can tolerate indoor conditions with enough light, but keep them outdoors as long as the temperatures are above ±45°F/7°C. They are great learner trees.
Search these threads. As I said above, there is a wealth of advice, knowledge and bonsai wisdom here. Most of the questions you have are already answered for other newbies who came long before us, and are now able to give advice as they were given.
95% of the people here are excited to share, and will readily help you. If you can't find the information you're looking for, ask, and I guarantee you'll get an answer. But be prepared to listen, even if it's not what you hoped to hear.
Last thing I can think of is to remember that you can't read tone in digital words, as I'm sure you already know. Sometimes people get shaken up by perceiving malice or "talking down." Don't be that guy. 😁 We don't know how much experience you have with growing plants, specifically trees, so any suggestions are given with the hope for your success.
WELCOME To the Community! Have fun!
Click to expand...
Thanks, really appreciate it.

I know I'm being ambitious already but really keen too learn aswell so all advice and guidance given to very much appreciated and will be used. If doing what I kinda had planned for it will kill it or damage it in some, I 100% won't be doing it.

As soon as I saw the tree I fell in love, I can see so much potential but if it's not possible or way too much risk I just won't do it. At the end of the day, I started this journey to teach myself some patience.

Any suggestions with what to do with the tree will be much appreciated. I ultimately want it to be like the top half, after the kink to the left because that's what caught my eye straight away if that's even possible with this tree at the moment. I want it about the same height as the top after the kink so that's why I thought air layer straight away but definitely seems hard if not impossible to do that.

Since it's seems to be 100% a douglas fir, I will research caring for her and plan for this winter to keep her alive. Looks like she will need a prune this winter so will give rooting some cuttings a try, much better than just throwing them away.
 
Bonsai_beginner98 said:
Thanks, really appreciate it.

I know I'm being ambitious already but really keen too learn aswell so all advice and guidance given to very much appreciated and will be used. If doing what I kinda had planned for it will kill it or damage it in some, I 100% won't be doing it.

As soon as I saw the tree I fell in love, I can see so much potential but if it's not possible or way too much risk I just won't do it. At the end of the day, I started this journey to teach myself some patience.

Any suggestions with what to do with the tree will be much appreciated. I ultimately want it to be like the top half, after the kink to the left because that's what caught my eye straight away if that's even possible with this tree at the moment. I want it about the same height as the top after the kink so that's why I thought air layer straight away but definitely seems hard if not impossible to do that.

Since it's seems to be 100% a douglas fir, I will research caring for her and plan for this winter to keep her alive. Looks like she will need a prune this winter so will give rooting some cuttings a try, much better than just throwing them away.
Click to expand...
Being ambitious isn't a problem in learning bonsai. Patience is certainly a part of things, but being complacent is not patience.

The trick is to actually LEARN from what you did/are doing to the tree. Also, FWIW, first time trees rarely make it more than a couple of years.

For right now, skip pruning, skip plans for cuttings, root grafts, etc. All that can and will weaken growth on the tree, slow things down. You won't learn ANYTHING from cuttings, except that it's more difficult than you think. Stripping things down to the basics is part of learning patience. Just learn how to take care of the tree. Watering for instance, is THE most difficult part of bonsai. It's not easy, even though it sounds like a no-brainer.

If you want a thicker, more powerful looking bonsai from this, there are years ahead of doing mostly nothing except growing the trunk to a larger diameter. It's a thin sapling now.

Here in the states, Doug firs are pretty common, as they're native to the Pacific Northwest. Bonsaiists here use old collected material to start with.

Note the trees on the link below and the care instructions. The trees in the photos are old and ancient collected specimens. and FWIW, they have been worked on to make them bonsai. They didn't come off the mountains looking like that. The structure of those trees might give you some design ideas for yours.

Douglas Fir Bonsai

Learn everything there is to know about Douglas Fir Bonsai, their origin, care information, where you can purchase one of your own, and more.
bonsaimirai.com bonsaimirai.com
 
rockm said:
Being ambitious isn't a problem in learning bonsai. Patience is certainly a part of things, but being complacent is not patience.

The trick is to actually LEARN from what you did/are doing to the tree. Also, FWIW, first time trees rarely make it more than a couple of years.

For right now, skip pruning, skip plans for cuttings, root grafts, etc. All that can and will weaken growth on the tree, slow things down. You won't learn ANYTHING from cuttings, except that it's more difficult than you think. Stripping things down to the basics is part of learning patience. Just learn how to take care of the tree. Watering for instance, is THE most difficult part of bonsai. It's not easy, even though it sounds like a no-brainer.

If you want a thicker, more powerful looking bonsai from this, there are years ahead of doing mostly nothing except growing the trunk to a larger diameter. It's a thin sapling now.

Here in the states, Doug firs are pretty common, as they're native to the Pacific Northwest. Bonsaiists here use old collected material to start with.

Note the trees on the link below and the care instructions. The trees in the photos are old and ancient collected specimens. and FWIW, they have been worked on to make them bonsai. They didn't come off the mountains looking like that. The structure of those trees might give you some design ideas for yours.

Douglas Fir Bonsai

Learn everything there is to know about Douglas Fir Bonsai, their origin, care information, where you can purchase one of your own, and more.
bonsaimirai.com bonsaimirai.com
Click to expand...
Awesome, thanks for that.
So focus purely on getting her comfortable and learning how to keep her happy and healthy for now? That's absolutely fine by me 😁 she's a stunning little tree and don't want her to die. (Think I gotta get some support for her tho, don't want the top snapping off)
And now I know for 100% she a douglas fir, I know what I gotta research etc.
Thanks so much, will have root around 😉 in the fourms for more info about her and what others have done/doing with this type of tree aswell. Thanks again
 
So for instance, if I wanted to copy/recreate just the top section that I've attached into a formal upright or slanted with a thin tapered trunk like the photo, I would be better off getting a smaller younger sapling? I would then keep this as is, let it grow and fatten up for a more older looking tree.
I know being ambitious again 😁
 

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Bonsai_beginner98 said:
So for instance, if I wanted to copy/recreate just the top section that I've attached into a formal upright or slanted with a thin tapered trunk like the photo, I would be better off getting a smaller younger sapling? I would then keep this as is, let it grow and fatten up for a more older looking tree.
I know being ambitious again 😁
Click to expand...
The short answer is yeah a small younger sapling

BUT---The tree you have now IS what you're asking about. Simply wiring the tree into a more upright position would make a formal upright. Wiring a younger trunk like this is not all that hard. Conifers have pretty flexible wood and a bend like the one that's needed for this tree isn't hard to accomplish.

One of the basic things to learn artistically for bonsai is that height and trunk diameter are bound together visually. The taller the tree the thicker the trunk needs to be to make it 'believable' to the eye. So, the taller the tree, the thicker the trunk needs to be to visually support the overall image you're after.

You, like most beginners, are fixated on the EXISTING trunk and top foliage of a stock tree and not on the lower trunk that could be developed with some thinking. So to be believable as bonsai, this tree would have to have a trunk as thick as your arm at soil level to "fool" the eye into seeing a large mature tree in miniature. The most important part of a bonsai is the first 12-24 inches of trunk from the soil. The rest of the tree is mostly expendable and is replaced. DON'T GET HUNG UP ON THE TOP OF A NEW TREE. THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU WILL BE WORKING TO MAKE INTO A BONSAI...

Rule of Thumb--EXISTING trunks on stock trees or the majority of collected trees are mostly not used to create a "finished" bonsai. Bonsai are created from abbreviated (chopped, significantly reduced) trunks whose tops have been regrown wholesale, or in the case of conifers, re-engineered from existing lower branching.

So the question you have to ask yourself is what I asked before--do you like the diameter of the lower portion of the trunk NOW? If so, you're going to have to significantly reduce the top and wire up a new leader branch at the height you like. If not, grow this trunk out for a few years to increase diameter.
 
rockm said:
The short answer is yeah a small younger sapling

BUT---The tree you have now IS what you're asking about. Simply wiring the tree into a more upright position would make a formal upright. Wiring a younger trunk like this is not all that hard. Conifers have pretty flexible wood and a bend like the one that's needed for this tree isn't hard to accomplish.

One of the basic things to learn artistically for bonsai is that height and trunk diameter are bound together visually. The taller the tree the thicker the trunk needs to be to make it 'believable' to the eye. So, the taller the tree, the thicker the trunk needs to be to visually support the overall image you're after.

You, like most beginners, are fixated on the EXISTING trunk and top foliage of a stock tree and not on the lower trunk that could be developed with some thinking. So to be believable as bonsai, this tree would have to have a trunk as thick as your arm at soil level to "fool" the eye into seeing a large mature tree in miniature. The most important part of a bonsai is the first 12-24 inches of trunk from the soil. The rest of the tree is mostly expendable and is replaced. DON'T GET HUNG UP ON THE TOP OF A NEW TREE. THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU WILL BE WORKING TO MAKE INTO A BONSAI...

Rule of Thumb--EXISTING trunks on stock trees or the majority of collected trees are mostly not used to create a "finished" bonsai. Bonsai are created from abbreviated (chopped, significantly reduced) trunks whose tops have been regrown wholesale, or in the case of conifers, re-engineered from existing lower branching.

So the question you have to ask yourself is what I asked before--do you like the diameter of the lower portion of the trunk NOW? If so, you're going to have to significantly reduce the top and wire up a new leader branch at the height you like. If not, grow this trunk out for a few years to increase diameter.
Click to expand...
Sorry for going off topic from the original post 😅
You have definitely opened my eyes more to how to look at a tree.

Nope, definitely not happy with the thickness of the trunk compared to the height so I've definitely got some thinking to do, glad it's still summer here so I have some time to think whether to chop the top and wire a new leader or let it grow, leaning towards just letting it thicken up, straighting it out, making her happy and keeping her healthy. I definitely want it to look more like a miniature natural fir instead of a long twig in a pot like it is now.

Honestly this is the most helpful information I've ever had and really helped with this tree. Thank you so so much
 
Bonsai_beginner98 said:
Sorry for going off topic from the original post 😅
You have definitely opened my eyes more to how to look at a tree.

Nope, definitely not happy with the thickness of the trunk compared to the height so I've definitely got some thinking to do, glad it's still summer here so I have some time to think whether to chop the top and wire a new leader or let it grow, leaning towards just letting it thicken up, straighting it out, making her happy and keeping her healthy. I definitely want it to look more like a miniature natural fir instead of a long twig in a pot like it is now.

Honestly this is the most helpful information I've ever had and really helped with this tree. Thank you so so much
Click to expand...
Another rule of thumb--the proper way to look at bonsai is from the bottom up.

The nebari (surface roots and initial emergence of the trunk from the ground) is the single most important piece of a bonsai. It sets the tone and expectation for the rest of the tree above. It is the oldest part of the tree. The top is the youngest--this is true of "real life" trees as well. The oldest portion of the tree shows ALL of its struggles and tribulations, as well as its ability to get past them.

A tree without a decent nebari that grips the soil with surface roots and rises powerfully (or sinuously, or whatever mood the grower is trying to set), is nothing. That means getting the nebari right is the first item on the 'to do' list. It can take a few years, or a few hundred years, depending on where the tree is coming from. It takes time and work in flattening out the root mass and forcing roots to grow laterally.

It should be noted, that good nebari isn't necessarily dependent on tree's size or age, although both help. It depends largely on the bonsaiists' attention to it and conscious development of it. Shohin, mame and shito sized trees (under 18 inches down to an inch) can have extremely nice nebari, but it's been carefully developed. The smaller the bonsai, the more expertise is needed.
 
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