Help; JBP bonsai brown needles

[Haidr]

Hi fellow bonsai enthusiasts. I have yet another issue I need help with. I recently purchased a JBP bonsai and the older needles have brown tips. The bonsai nursery guy told me just fertilise it and water it regularly and that would resolve the problem. Can someone please let me know if I should cut the brown needles or let them be? Also, if it can be something else like fungus etc? New needles seem to be fine without any brown tips or spots.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

I see banding that is indicative of needlecast fungus

The brown tips could also be a different type of fungus, I believe this is also a needlecast

I will leave naming the fungus to more experienced members who will be along later.

Needlecast never really goes away and you need to stay on top of treatment, I don't know what fungicide is available in AUS but there are members on here from AUS who may be able to point you in the right direction

Treatment advice can be found here: https://www.bonsainut.com/resources/dormant-season-spraying-part-3-pine-trees.38/

100% certain that fertiliser and water will NOT resolve the problem, this raises issues for me with the place you bought it, needlecast is really common in pines, they either knew what it was and mislead you, or they didn't know what it was which would make me wary before buying more trees from them (particularly pines)

You should also remove the effected needles and dispose of them properly, don't drop them in your garden.

 

[Haidr]

Thanks for your reply. I think the nursery mislead me. I asked them if it was a disease, he ensured me it wasn’t and just because of tree not getting enough fertilisation etc and hot weather and the problem would go away. I’ll definitely be paying them a visit tomorrow

 

[Haidr]

@Shibui can you please help me determine if this is a needlecast fungus? Can it be treated? If not then I’ll go to the nursery tomorrow I bought it from. They mislead me and I payed $500 for this bonsai

 

[Shibui]

I can only see one needle with horizontal stripes so I doubt this is Dothostroma.
Brown tips are not Dothostroma. Much more likely from dehydration at some stage - obviously before the new needles started to grow in Spring. Some of the needles have been trimmed at some stage. That also results in brown tips.
Looks like this one was decandled recently but it's hard to see how many new buds are forming from these pictures. The tree appears reasonably healthy but not overly strong. I would probably take the risk and fertilise this summer to try to build up strength and energy rather than hoping it will be strong enough as is. We can always suppress overly strong growth but can't make much with no growth if the tree is too weak.

Looks like a nice JBP and probably worth the $500. Which nursery?

 

[Haidr]

I can only see one needle with horizontal stripes so I doubt this is Dothostroma.
Brown tips are not Dothostroma. Much more likely from dehydration at some stage - obviously before the new needles started to grow in Spring. Some of the needles have been trimmed at some stage. That also results in brown tips.
Looks like this one was decandled recently but it's hard to see how many new buds are forming from these pictures. The tree appears reasonably healthy but not overly strong. I would probably take the risk and fertilise this summer to try to build up strength and energy rather than hoping it will be strong enough as is. We can always suppress overly strong growth but can't make much with no growth if the tree is too weak.

Looks like a nice JBP and probably worth the $500. Which nursery?

I can only see one needle with horizontal stripes so I doubt this is Dothostroma.
Brown tips are not Dothostroma. Much more likely from dehydration at some stage - obviously before the new needles started to grow in Spring. Some of the needles have been trimmed at some stage. That also results in brown tips.
Looks like this one was decandled recently but it's hard to see how many new buds are forming from these pictures. The tree appears reasonably healthy but not overly strong. I would probably take the risk and fertilise this summer to try to build up strength and energy rather than hoping it will be strong enough as is. We can always suppress overly strong growth but can't make much with no growth if the tree is too weak.

Looks like a nice JBP and probably worth the $500. Which nursery?

Shibui! Thanks mate! I love the bonsai and was worried. I got it from Bonsai Sensation in NarreWarren. They got a lot of JBP. And Yes, mostly all the tips are burned. The nursery guy did mention it was sitting in the sun all summer and that could have caused it. They have already done the decandeling and new buds are there. I’ll post pictures in the morning. Would you recommend any fungicide just as an precaution?

 

[Haidr]

I can only see one needle with horizontal stripes so I doubt this is Dothostroma.
Brown tips are not Dothostroma. Much more likely from dehydration at some stage - obviously before the new needles started to grow in Spring. Some of the needles have been trimmed at some stage. That also results in brown tips.
Looks like this one was decandled recently but it's hard to see how many new buds are forming from these pictures. The tree appears reasonably healthy but not overly strong. I would probably take the risk and fertilise this summer to try to build up strength and energy rather than hoping it will be strong enough as is. We can always suppress overly strong growth but can't make much with no growth if the tree is too weak.

Looks like a nice JBP and probably worth the $500. Which nursery?

Hi @Shibui. Pictures of some of the new buds after decandling

 

[Paradox]

I agree this doesn't look like needle cast as that is usually bands, not just the tips.

I would not cut the needles off.

The new buds look good and is a good sign.

The color is off IMO, kinda yellowish. I agree with Shibui, I would give this tree some fertilizer to build strength

 

[Shibui]

I suspected it was a Bonsai Sensation tree. Tien is the main grower of JBP now and does a good job of it.
Fungicides can be nasty (to people) so only use if you have symptoms.

As I suspected there are not many new buds. 2s and 3s is OK but healthy shoots will grow 3-6 new buds. The shoots with only 1 new bud obviously does nothing to improve your ramification.
Not meaning to be critical of Bonsai sensation. I have quite a few JBP here with similar results after decandling this year but I should be able to do better.
Here's a few of mine for comparison.

Note the brown ends where I trimmed the longer needles on the shoots I did not decandle last summer.
I think the buds on mine are just a fraction more advanced. That could be timing of decandling or a result of nutrition and health. Also compare the colour of the old needles and new buds. I'll be withholding fertiliser for a few months to try to restrain these new shoots but I think you should use liquid fert now just to improve vigour on that tree for next year.

The buds on this one are more advanced. Can't remember if I decandled this one earlier. May just be a result of extra fert and a young, vigorous tree.

 

[Haidr]

Thanks for your response Shibui, the new buds on your pine are perfect. Your diagnosis makes sense about the tree not being too healthy. It’s potted in a small pot and does require special care which a nursery can’t provide as they have to look after hundreds of trees. I have started fertilisation and removed a lot of moss growing on the branches. Hopefully the bonsai will get healthy soon. Appreciate your time and advice as always. I have learned a lot from you.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

Hopefully I was wrong, I admit i only picked out one band,

I was concerned the tips where lophodermium but with no fruiting bodies present

It brings me some relief if the tips can be simply lack of water during heat as a few of my seedlings are in a similar situation and was diagnosed during a visit from a professional and I certainly had dry days with little water last year I would be very happy if I don't need to treat them!

 

[Haidr]

Hopefully I was wrong, I admit i only picked out one band,

I was concerned the tips where lophodermium but with no fruiting bodies present

It brings me some relief if the tips can be simply lack of water during heat as a few of my seedlings are in a similar situation and was diagnosed during a visit from a professional and I certainly had dry days with little water last year I would be very happy if I don't need to treat them!

I hope so too I have bought a coper fungicide just in case. It’s hard to do the exact diagnostic from pictures unless one has grown multiple bonsai over the years. I have removed any needles that had any sort of “banding” pattern. Will spray with the fungicide to save the new growth just in case there was any fungus present.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

Here is a link to another resource that may be useful when identifying problems in pines:

Resource icon

Flow Chart for Diagnosis Pine Problems

Jul 17, 2015

from my source

• bonhe
• Tutorials

Hope this helps

 

[Haidr]

T

I agree this doesn't look like needle cast as that is usually bands, not just the tips.

I would not cut the needles off.

The new buds look good and is a good sign.

The color is off IMO, kinda yellowish. I agree with Shibui, I would give this tree some fertilizer to build strength

han for your reply mate. Noted. Started fertilisation. Hopefully the tree starts growing healthy soon

 

[Bonsai Nut]

When I see a pine like this, I immediately wonder about water. It looks like a pine in Southern California that is being watered with horrifically bad, alkaline mains water that is high in sodium. Do you know your water pH? How much watering is artificial versus natural rain?

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I agree it looks a bit nutrient deficient. I think with proper analysis and care you should be able to get it back to optimal health.

 

[Shibui]

When I see a pine like this, I immediately wonder about water. It looks like a pine in Southern California that is being watered with horrifically bad, alkaline mains water that is high in sodium. Do you know your water pH? How much watering is artificial versus natural rain?

Melbourne has good natural rainfall so the trees probably get regular flushing with rainfall. Mains water comes from mountain reservoirs so is good quality. It's treated to be slightly alkaline to protect the pipes and tapware and has fluoride and chlorine added but probably nothing like some of the SoCal water I hear you guys talking about. We don't have acidifying fertiliser because it's not needed.
Here's a snapshot of the water report for the 5 major water treatment plants around Melbourne.

pH from 6.8 to 7.9

 

[Haidr]

When I see a pine like this, I immediately wonder about water. It looks like a pine in Southern California that is being watered with horrifically bad, alkaline mains water that is high in sodium. Do you know your water pH? How much watering is artificial versus natural rain?

Hey mate, I got it from a nursery so won’t have a clue if they used rain water or tap. Tree was definitely dehydrated at some point as it’s in a really small pot and we had some really hot days here. Ausii sun hits different

 

[Haidr]

I agree it looks a bit nutrient deficient. I think with proper analysis and care you should be able to get it back to optimal health.

I started fertilising and also used KELP, humic and fulvic acid conditioner. Bonsai is already looking better

 

[Haidr]

Hi

Melbourne has good natural rainfall so the trees probably get regular flushing with rainfall. Mains water comes from mountain reservoirs so is good quality. It's treated to be slightly alkaline to protect the pipes and tapware and has fluoride and chlorine added but probably nothing like some of the SoCal water I hear you guys talking about. We don't have acidifying fertiliser because it's not needed.
Here's a snapshot of the water report for the 5 major water treatment plants around Melbourne.
View attachment 580640
pH from 6.8 to 7

Hi Shibui, I use rain water for all my bonsai. Even Melbourne’s tap water would be fine if I don’t have rain water?