Help Identify Maturity of Mugo Pine Candle on both trees

[Deleted member 47471]

Tree #1:




Tree #2:





In June and earlier in July of this Summer, I was unsure of the level of maturity regarding the candles on these Mugo pines. I know Vance Wood recommended candle pruning in July, but I was curious if he wrote them according to a zone other than 8B (where I Live, in Virginia).

I recognized temps were very high earlier in June and wasn’t sure if my Mugo candles matured beyond the threshold already.

Please help me understand their current state of hardening/maturity and when it will be safe to do candle pruning (earlier in Spring next year due to my zone?) Thanks!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Haven’t followed the contest an awful lot and have never been quite sure about candle pruning in July. If Vance did it h3 had things dialed in.

But it seems this post is a bit previous to the actual action. If so fine. Here’s Vance’s guidelines in this regard….

• Don't think about de-candling until you start getting some vigorous ramification. I have found that it takes roughly two growing seasons on a new tree before things develop enough that de-candling becomes an option. Let the tree grow freely, with only selective bud selection in the fall or early spring.

So Vance is telling everyone not to prune for and least two growing seasons… agreed this is a bit subjective…. but after the pruning done to the tree in the photos this seems to mean a couple of years from now.

• When ready (…and the tree has vigorous ramification). , in July I totally remove the new growth all the way down to the starting point from the current seasons growth plus about an eighth of an inch of the new stem. Always a bit confused about this, (but we use the Kimura method), this is what he seems to mean.

The rest seems pretty self explanatory.

• There should be needles left from last year- this is where the new buds will form. These buds will not break until the next season.

After two seasons full grow out with ferts, any mugo should have plenty of old needles!… unless they are plucked (Never can understand why folks pluck single flush, yet we use the Kimura method and don’t pluck old needles).

• Mugos will not produce a second flush of growth as with a JBP. You are looking to produce an abundance of new smaller buds up and down the branches that will, next spring, produce shorter internodes and shorter needles.
• This de-candling method is best done for three consecutive years, letting the tree rest on the fourth year……

Hope this helps!

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[19Mateo83]

I’m just south of you in NC and I chopped mine hard a little ahead of Vance’s time frame. So far it’s pushing new buds at almost every chop site.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Awesome!

Wonder how if would back bud any differwntly if you wait? Were any branches with buds left to try? If not maybe next year?

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Deleted member 47471]

Haven’t followed the contest an awful lot and have never been quite sure about candle pruning in July. If Vance did it h3 had things dialed in.

But it seems this post is a bit previous to the actual action. If so fine. Here’s Vance’s guidelines in this regard….

• Don't think about de-candling until you start getting some vigorous ramification. I have found that it takes roughly two growing seasons on a new tree before things develop enough that de-candling becomes an option. Let the tree grow freely, with only selective bud selection in the fall or early spring.

So Vance is telling everyone not to prune for and least two growing seasons… agreed this is a bit subjective…. but after the pruning done to the tree in the photos this seems to mean a couple of years from now.

• When ready (…and the tree has vigorous ramification). , in July I totally remove the new growth all the way down to the starting point from the current seasons growth plus about an eighth of an inch of the new stem. Always a bit confused about this, (but we use the Kimura method), this is what he seems to mean.

View attachment 557044

The rest seems pretty self explanatory.

• There should be needles left from last year- this is where the new buds will form. These buds will not break until the next season.

After two seasons full grow out with ferts, any mugo should have plenty of old needles!… unless they are plucked (Never can understand why folks pluck single flush, yet we use the Kimura method and don’t pluck old needles).

• Mugos will not produce a second flush of growth as with a JBP. You are looking to produce an abundance of new smaller buds up and down the branches that will, next spring, produce shorter internodes and shorter needles.
• This de-candling method is best done for three consecutive years, letting the tree rest on the fourth year……

Hope this helps!

Cheers
DSD sends

This does help, thank you very much. I’m new to pine and identifying what constitutes candle growth beyond what can be pruned.

Much appreciated.

 

[Deleted member 47471]

I’m just south of you in NC and I chopped mine hard a little ahead of Vance’s time frame. So far it’s pushing new buds at almost every chop site. View attachment 557045View attachment 557046

I am tempted to candle prune on one branch I am not intending to keep long term and see what happens but there are many extended needles all around from what was more juvenile candle (maybe before I purchased)… but I don’t want to risk losing that extra health and energy those unwanted branches contain and contribute.

 

[Shibui]

I've learned pines mostly from trial and error so may not align with any of the recognised experts.

It has already been mentioned that Mugho is a single flush pine so we don't often see new shoots until spring following pruning.
My (limited) experiences with mugho suggests that time of year is less important when doing hard pruning to promote more shoots back along overgrown branches. Whether I prune in spring, summer or autumn I still seem to get buds from remaining healthy candles that then grow the following spring.
Decandling - taking limited newer growth is good for promoting ramification on well developed branches but it does not seem to be the best option for initial styling where the trees have long branches with fewer tertiary options because it seems to only give buds close to the ends. Where I need to get secondary or tertiary shoots back on longer branches (as is common on new nursery stock) I chop much harder. Cutting way back into 2 and 3 year old shoots has given good results provided there are still healthy needles left on the branch. The branches are then rebuilt with better ramification using decandling and lighter pruning over several years much as one would do when building branches on deciduous trees.

@19Mateo83 The buds on your tree look good but will they help with developing good branch structure? From what I can see, the branches below have long, unbranched sections. Look forward a few years when the older needles hade died off and try to imagine those sections without needles. What will branch structure look like then? Building great ramification at the end of long, bare branches is not achieving what I expect of my Mugho bonsai.
Just like with black pines, newer mugho growers seem to put the cart before the horse and start with maintenance techniques when development techniques would be a much better option.

 

[Deleted member 47471]

I've learned pines mostly from trial and error so may not align with any of the recognised experts.

It has already been mentioned that Mugho is a single flush pine so we don't often see new shoots until spring following pruning.
My (limited) experiences with mugho suggests that time of year is less important when doing hard pruning to promote more shoots back along overgrown branches. Whether I prune in spring, summer or autumn I still seem to get buds from remaining healthy candles that then grow the following spring.
Decandling - taking limited newer growth is good for promoting ramification on well developed branches but it does not seem to be the best option for initial styling where the trees have long branches with fewer tertiary options because it seems to only give buds close to the ends. Where I need to get secondary or tertiary shoots back on longer branches (as is common on new nursery stock) I chop much harder. Cutting way back into 2 and 3 year old shoots has given good results provided there are still healthy needles left on the branch. The branches are then rebuilt with better ramification using decandling and lighter pruning over several years much as one would do when building branches on deciduous trees.

@19Mateo83 The buds on your tree look good but will they help with developing good branch structure? From what I can see, the branches below have long, unbranched sections. Look forward a few years when the older needles hade died off and try to imagine those sections without needles. What will branch structure look like then? Building great ramification at the end of long, bare branches is not achieving what I expect of my Mugho bonsai.
Just like with black pines, newer mugho growers seem to put the cart before the horse and start with maintenance techniques when development techniques would be a much better option.

Thank you for this insight! Understood greatly my friend