Hackberry

[RobT1977]

This Celtis Occidentalis( hackberry) i had in my back yard was near six feet last spring, i trunk chopped it about 18" ...fertilized it early spring this year, and i think im gonna have a pretty cool tree to work with. I dont know if its truly Yamadori since i found it in my yard, but its close enough. ANY THOUGHTS ON DEFOLIATING TO MINIATURIZE LEAVES? I think i will wait a year or two to develop branch thickness, but this is just a guess . .ADVICE WELCOME!!

 

[Forsoothe!]

Don't take it out of the ground until you are happy with the size of the branches and trunk. Clip and grow weekly to keep it in bounds to retain/create taper and denude 3rd week of June to reduce leaf size. Don't (over) fertilize since it has its whole root system intact it will grow like mad anyway. Establish a front and liberally use sacrifice branches hidden in back to increase taper/trunk thickening. When you do dig it up, you should only do root reduction and editing from there on.

 

[RobT1977]

thank you for your response. please explain denude...entirely defoliating?

 

[RobT1977]

Don't take it out of the ground until you are happy with the size of the branches and trunk. Clip and grow weekly to keep it in bounds to retain/create taper and denude 3rd week of June to reduce leaf size. Don't (over) fertilize since it has its whole root system intact it will grow like mad anyway. Establish a front and liberally use sacrifice branches hidden in back to increase taper/trunk thickening. When you do dig it up, you should only do root reduction and editing from there on.

explain denude?

 

[Forsoothe!]

Cut all the leaves off at the base of the leaf, leaving the petiole which guards the buds in the axils. It will look ugly. The new leaf will kick the dead petiole out of the way as it emerges.

 

[Anthony]

Get trunk size and branch placements.
Don't worry about leaf size.
As you train the branchlets, the leaves get smaller.
When all is in place, you can happily defoliate every year.

 

[Joe Dupre']

I've only had one hackberry, which I collected last year. I find the branches are ridiculously thin for a tree over a year from collection. It's in the ground now. I think it's a good idea to leave yours in the ground until the branches are close to what you want.

 

[Sekibonsai]

There is no reason to defoliate when it is in the ground. Really there is little reason to ever defoliate even when it is in a bonsai pot. The only thing you need be concerned about now is developing a root system and possibly the bases of potential final branches. Undercut one side so that roots will start to develop close in. If you are not in a hurry you could do the other side next year then collect the year after that...

 

[JudyB]

Hackberry leaf size is naturally small when there is good ramification and a full canopy. I rarely have defoliated mine for that reason.

 

[RobT1977]

There is no reason to defoliate when it is in the ground. Really there is little reason to ever defoliate even when it is in a bonsai pot. The only thing you need be concerned about now is developing a root system and possibly the bases of potential final branches. Undercut one side so that roots will start to develop close in. If you are not in a hurry you could do the other side next year then collect the year after that...

undercutting just the lateral roots right?

 

[RobT1977]

Hackberry leaf size is naturally small when there is good ramification and a full canopy. I rarely have defoliated mine for that reason.

the leaves on mine are relatively big...but i probably wont try to reduce until i get the branch thickness i want ...and then collect and pot it.

 

[RobT1977]

More questions on my hackberry...should i treat these knot holes? How do i do thjs? ive also heard you can hollow out the trunk chop to increase taper...Any thoughts?

 

[JudyB]

the leaves on mine are relatively big...but i probably wont try to reduce until i get the branch thickness i want ...and then collect and pot it.View attachment 243454View attachment 243455

I suppose I should have said in pot culture...ground is very different. And that tree has very few leaves on it and no ramification. Lots of ramification means lots of leaves, and leaf surface area is what the tree uses for solar panels. If there are more leaves, they can be smaller as that is the same amount of surface area total as fewer bigger leaves.
I would think that you'd use that low uro as a feature of the tree.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Defoliating forces ramification earlier and closer-in. Everything done, or not done to a tree contributes, or not, to the final tree. You can either do things that ultimately grow and become part of the final tree, like ramification, or grow and cut off. Branches can thicken and be kept short so the whole short branch becomes tapered as part of the ultimate tree, or you can "let grow" and chop, let grow and chop, let grow and chop and wounds and stumpy branches become part of the ultimate tree.

"Let grow" is a synonym for "waste the tree's assets and prolong the length of time it takes to grow and refine the tree". Set the architecture early and often with wire; trim by pinching early and often (constantly). Accumulate wood in-scale at the same time you are avoiding chop scars. Root pruning with a shovel can do the same thing. Again, on a continuing basis.
Reap as ye sow.

 

[RobT1977]

I suppose I should have said in pot culture...ground is very different. And that tree has very few leaves on it and no ramification. Lots of ramification means lots of leaves, and leaf surface area is what the tree uses for solar panels. If there are more leaves, they can be smaller as that is the same amount of surface area total as fewer bigger leaves.
I would think that you'd use that low uro as a feature of the tree.

uro? are you talking about the knot hole near the bottom? thats actually why i love this tree so much...it has two knotholes, thats why i posted so i can find how to manage and feature them.?

 

[JudyB]

Yes, knots or insets in the tree trunk are called Uro in bonsai culture, not sure the derivation of the name...
You feature them, by exposing their best angle in the visual placement of the tree in the overall styling of the tree. Manage them in what way? Hackberry are not prone to rot, so my carved and uro features on my hackberries never needed anything to stabilize them. You can use wood hardener if you see rot, but I would just leave it be. You can clean out the depression to make it more attractive, you should look at some carving images or videos if you want to go further. It has a nice natural edge where the callus has rolled over so I would go with what the tree is giving you.

 

[RobT1977]

this answers my question thank you

 

[RobT1977]

Defoliating forces ramification earlier and closer-in. Everything done, or not done to a tree contributes, or not, to the final tree. You can either do things that ultimately grow and become part of the final tree, like ramification, or grow and cut off. Branches can thicken and be kept short so the whole short branch becomes tapered as part of the ultimate tree, or you can "let grow" and chop, let grow and chop, let grow and chop and wounds and stumpy branches become part of the ultimate tree.

"Let grow" is a synonym for "waste the tree's assets and prolong the length of time it takes to grow and refine the tree". Set the architecture early and often with wire; trim by pinching early and often (constantly). Accumulate wood in-scale at the same time you are avoiding chop scars. Root pruning with a shovel can do the same thing. Again, on a continuing basis.
Reap as ye sow.

"pinching" ..you mean the terminal buds, to encourage back budding and ramification, right?

 

[RobT1977]

Defoliating forces ramification earlier and closer-in. Everything done, or not done to a tree contributes, or not, to the final tree. You can either do things that ultimately grow and become part of the final tree, like ramification, or grow and cut off. Branches can thicken and be kept short so the whole short branch becomes tapered as part of the ultimate tree, or you can "let grow" and chop, let grow and chop, let grow and chop and wounds and stumpy branches become part of the ultimate tree.

"Let grow" is a synonym for "waste the tree's assets and prolong the length of time it takes to grow and refine the tree". Set the architecture early and often with wire; trim by pinching early and often (constantly). Accumulate wood in-scale at the same time you are avoiding chop scars. Root pruning with a shovel can do the same thing. Again, on a continuing basis.
Reap as ye sow.

Defoliating forces ramification earlier and closer-in. Everything done, or not done to a tree contributes, or not, to the final tree. You can either do things that ultimately grow and become part of the final tree, like ramification, or grow and cut off. Branches can thicken and be kept short so the whole short branch becomes tapered as part of the ultimate tree, or you can "let grow" and chop, let grow and chop, let grow and chop and wounds and stumpy branches become part of the ultimate tree.

"Let grow" is a synonym for "waste the tree's assets and prolong the length of time it takes to grow and refine the tree". Set the architecture early and often with wire; trim by pinching early and often (constantly). Accumulate wood in-scale at the same time you are avoiding chop scars. Root pruning with a shovel can do the same thing. Again, on a continuing basis.
Reap as ye sow.

Thank you forsoothe! for your answers, also i have one more...do you have any suggestions on branch placement...i know first branch ideally is one third of the way up the trunk, then next one is, (ideally),one third the distance from thr ground and the first branch?

 

[Forsoothe!]

Yes. You remove a volume too small to measure as opposed to removing a cluster of grown leaves and the wood of the twig they're on. That grow is put elsewhere, where you may want it. Don't do it to a branch you want to grow longer.