Growing Out: Potting Soil vs. Bonsai Soil

[coh]

I was just going to post something similar regarding pines. I don't think it's an issue with most deciduous species, as they are often bare-rooted after collecting. Not familiar enough with junipers to have an opinion.

But even with pines...say you're growing a pine just to develop the trunk. So you grow it in a soil-based mix (or even in the ground). Once you have the trunk you want, it's still going to (usually) be a multi to many year process to develop the branches and ramification. So does it really matter if it takes 5 or even 10 years to completely transition the root mass from potting soil or native soil to bonsai soil? People do this all the time with collected pines, right?

Good that you bring it up, as it's good for people to know the potential implications of using the potting soil mix down the road, especially for pines.

Chris

 

[Vance Wood]

I was just going to post something similar regarding pines. I don't think it's an issue with most deciduous species, as they are often bare-rooted after collecting. Not familiar enough with junipers to have an opinion.

But even with pines...say you're growing a pine just to develop the trunk. So you grow it in a soil-based mix (or even in the ground). Once you have the trunk you want, it's still going to (usually) be a multi to many year process to develop the branches and ramification. So does it really matter if it takes 5 or even 10 years to completely transition the root mass from potting soil or native soil to bonsai soil? People do this all the time with collected pines, right?

Good that you bring it up, as it's good for people to know the potential implications of using the potting soil mix down the road, especially for pines.

Chris

Yes this is right essentially. But as is the case with discussions about soil mixes, durability is the most important aspect. With durability comes predictability the concept upon which you base everything else you do that influences the soil structure and fertility. If your durability and predictability change too often you are constantly having to adjust everything else you do as to what you do, how much you do it and when you do it-----if at all. Yes; sometimes the unforeseen can force you to change plans or abandon them altogether. If your soil mix remains stable and does not degrade and or break down then every thing you plan to do can follow a sequence you may have planned for months in advance.

 

[Dav4]

You do place some parameters on the process; timing, aftercare and heath. If this is the presentation to beginners we have to have some sort of certainty that they, the beginners, know what we are talking about. There too is another issue; making the assumption we are only talking about Shimpaku Junipers. The way this discussion has been progressing it seems to have morffed into a concept for general development of bonsai, which would, in the beginners mind, seem to indicate every bleeding tree used in the art form, something I would not recommend with the Pine family.

Doesn't everything we do in Bonsai have horticultural parameters and guidelines that need to be somewhat closely followed if one is to be successful? Regardless of soil type, the likelihood of success in repotting is increased if you know what you're doing. Also, my contribution to this thread IS only concerning shimpaku because that's where my experience lies. I haven't advocated using soil conditioner to grow out pines because I haven't done it. Honestly, someone reading my contributions to this thread that decides that everything can be grown out in soil conditioner needs to read more closely, I guess, and that's on them and not me.

 

[Vance Wood]

Doesn't everything we do in Bonsai have horticultural parameters and guidelines that need to be somewhat closely followed if one is to be successful? Regardless of soil type, the likelihood of success in repotting is increased if you know what you're doing. Also, my contribution to this thread IS only concerning shimpaku because that's where my experience lies. I haven't advocated using soil conditioner to grow out pines because I haven't done it. Honestly, someone reading my contributions to this thread that decides that everything can be grown out in soil conditioner needs to read more closely, I guess, and that's on them and not me.

I don't think anybody is looking to pillory you for your position but you have to remember you did not start this thread and the parameters set in the beginning were not Shimpaku only.

 

[Eric Group]

The issue not mentioned is the replacement of all of the old potting soil and the introduction of a good quality bonsai mix. In some case we are back to ground zero faced with a three year program to replace one third of the old soil mix: meaning a nine year program to replace all of the potting soil with a bonsai mix. I'm not totally certain that this is a reasonable trade off.

As a few others have said the species of tree really determines whether this is a big issue or not. Maples, Elms, Azaleas... And pretty much most deciduous trees I have worked with seem to take a full bare root and switch from organic to inorganic soil in one repot without batting an eye.

I am sure the same is not true for Shimpaku- and most other Juniper- or Pines. Whether it was a nursery tree or a collected tree comes into effect with these species as well... The thread was pretty open as to the specific type of tree... He just seems to be asking- in general- what type of soil will produce the fastest growth for young trees, and in my experience it is regular old potting soil. I have been experimentig with using Bonsai soil even with developing trees and it doesn't give you poor results either, but it is terribly expensive - especially since growing out a tree usually indicates it is still in a large nursery can not a small Bonsai tray. The fast drying medium requires much more attention, is heavier and is generally a little more trouble to create and work with. Potting soil regulates water well for people who can't water constantly ( or forget to from time to time), and this is better in many ways for people new to the hobby to work with... Not to mention you can buy a bag at a local store anywhere in the ISA, where as tracking down bonsai soil or decent ingredients for it... Is almost impossible for some, short of ordering on line...

 

[Jason_mazzy]

I think with pines the sooner we get the roots used to a bonsai mix the better. Now that being said we tend to under fertilize when using these inorganic soils. Specifically nitrogen which washes away rather quickly.

I don't believe you will get better growth with potting soil with pines compared to properly fertilized bonsai soil mix. I think that's the weak link.

My university did some fertilization experiments this year and I read their abstracts and looked at the research and final results and one particular was close to this.

A potting soil style feed is great because its more like a set it and forget it style of approach. The would holds into fertilizers and water longer. Every time you water you flush fertilizer out of the soil so a soil that is watered less often holds more nutrients therefore you get more stabilized growth.

On the opposite side is the free draining inorganic soils that have a weak bond to fertilizers. These excel in the fact that they provide better oxygen to root but they are weaker in that they do not hold onto nutrients as effectively as traditional soil (but do not suffer the drowning/rotting either).

You can gt the best of both worlds by simply adjusting the feeding rate of the free draining inorganic soil.

Perhaps this is incinvenient for some people and for them the slow and steady of soil may be better.

 

[Jason_mazzy]

Please excuse the writing as it is from my iPhone and autocorrect. I may correct the grammar tomorrow.

 

[Vance Wood]

Please excuse the writing as it is from my iPhone and autocorrect. I may correct the grammar tomorrow.

Sometimes the autocorrect features can be a real pain in the you-know-what. That's why I disabled it. My spell checker now only highlights a word in question instead of deciding I ment this or should have said that. That was a pain. I would go back and find some really convoluted words pushed into some of my text.

 

[Guns286]

I just posted a similar question. So, I thought I'd resurrect this older post and see if you ended up using the potting soil and, if so, how you think its working?
I read an article that said that in order to thicken the trunk and grow out the tree you should use potting soil because it allows the roots to grow thick and long. Whereas Bonsai soil promotes thinner, smaller, more efficient feeder roots, due to the sharp edges of the grit. Based on this information I plan on putting a couple of young, thin trees (Olive and Willow) into large, potting soil filled containers and let them grow out for a couple of years.

 

[Brain Child]

I just posted a similar question. So, I thought I'd resurrect this older post and see if you ended up using the potting soil and, if so, how you think its working?
I read an article that said that in order to thicken the trunk and grow out the tree you should use potting soil because it allows the roots to grow thick and long. Whereas Bonsai soil promotes thinner, smaller, more efficient feeder roots, due to the sharp edges of the grit. Based on this information I plan on putting a couple of young, thin trees (Olive and Willow) into large, potting soil filled containers and let them grow out for a couple of years.

I too would like to know how this turned out. I've wanted to try this. Doesn't look like the OP has been on for almost 2 weeks though.

 

[edprocoat]

I just seen this thread. I can guarantee you that anything grows quicker and better potted in soil and even better when in the ground. I feel that Bonsai mixes are for root development and maintenance of your Bonsai. That aside, Bonsai mixes are relatively new in Bonsai practice, you can be assured that all those 100+ year old specimens you see in great collections have spent less than 20% of their lifetime in a "Mix". I have an old Japanese Bonsai book, circa 1965, that shows the sifted soil used in the trees and , naturally, it looked like potting soil as there was no popular alternative at that time. Amazingly enough these beautiful Bonsai fared well in soil.

ed

 

[Vance Wood]

I just seen this thread. I can guarantee you that anything grows quicker and better potted in soil and even better when in the ground. I feel that Bonsai mixes are for root development and maintenance of your Bonsai. That aside, Bonsai mixes are relatively new in Bonsai practice, you can be assured that all those 100+ year old specimens you see in great collections have spent less than 20% of their lifetime in a "Mix". I have an old Japanese Bonsai book, circa 1965, that shows the sifted soil used in the trees and , naturally, it looked like potting soil as there was no popular alternative at that time. Amazingly enough these beautiful Bonsai fared well in soil.

ed

Actually Ed those old soil mixtures though derived from harvested soil components held up pretty well. Yuji Yoshimura's book had some recipes for different types of trees. We used to spend a lot of time sorting this stuff out. The fact remains that you can grow a bonsai in dog crap if you know what to do with the tree; water, pruning etc. I do agree that sometimes we make too big a deal out of soil mixes and related subjects. The greatest soil mix wont help your tree/trees if you don't know any thing about how to grow them.

 

[Skinnygoomba]

Howdy Vance, welcome back!