Growing bed discussion

[KennedyMarx]

I would like this thread to be a discussion where we can all share our experiences on using growing beds to develop trees. It you have any tips or questions let hear them.

This spring I am making a 22x12x1 growing bed in my backyard. The plan is to scrape away a little of the top soil, put up 1' tall boards around the bed and fill it with a mix of he original soil with pine bark fines, horticultural (chunky) perlite, and diatomaceous earth. I want to devote half to japanese black pine and the other to green Japanese maples. I'll probably need to put a shade cloth (40%) over the maples side. I think a PVC frame with the cloth attached ahould work. I'm not sure about spacing between plants though. I'm considering using a one foot radius around some plants and a six inch radius around the others that will be smaller specimens.

 

[Bunjeh]

Ditto

Good thread. I built these small beds last year for the kids to garden in. Like most children, they have the attention span of a gnat so my son has suggested that we use these to grow trees. I will need to replace most of the soil as it is primarily loam, but my plan is to fill these with JBP, Juniperus Chinesis, and assorted Acer seedlings from this years crop. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[sorce]

Growing!

I'd want enough room between to get down and see them. To work them. This is not a set it and forget it endeavor.

Not to mention 8 ft long bottom branches, that are going to need some horizontal room before you can turn them up.

Far enough to keep pests from jumping right into the next.

Far enough to get sun low, without shade from neighbors.

Sorce

 

[cmeg1]

I have found leaves to be one of the best weed deterents.
This bed has 18 Zelkova cuttings in it.I am threading them all through saucers so they ground layer for smaller trees and clumps.

 

[Giga]

I have a picture in my blog of one I did this last spring and making another behind it for a few larger trees. But I use compost,manure,perlite,soil conditioner(pine bark), old bonsai soil and quality top soil to fill in the gaps. Works so far, and I usally leave room acording to how I want the tree to grow. I have a poopy yard in relation to where the sun rises but it works for now.

 

[Eric Schrader]

This spring I am making a 22x12x1 growing bed in my backyard.

One of the most onerous parts of really paying attention to a bonsai that is being ground grown is that you have to lay down on the ground to really get a good look at it. So, I'm guessing that's why you are thinking a raised bed is a good idea. But - the dimension you are thinking means that the trees around the edges are accessible while kneeling, but all the ones in the middle will require you to bush-whack and lay on the ground.

I'd recommend that you make 2' wide by 22" long beds. That'll mean more lumber but leaving a couple feet between the rows will give you much better access. I'd also recommend that you push the height to 16" if possible.

In my raised beds I actually use 2'x2' x 16" boxes each with one tree. But - I'm not growing for volume. Each single tree that occupies one of those boxes is carefully selected. This photo is from a few years ago before I moved, but I set up some of these again in my yard in San Francisco:

The idea here is that you can see the tree from all different directions without much trouble.

Perhaps you've seen images of the raised rows of ground grown white pine in southern Japan? Check out some of Jonas' entries on bonsaitonight.com

 

[Eric Group]

I am thinking of doing another raised be myself! I have one small one now with a couple small trees in it, but I'd like a larger bed. Something a couple feet high with a good mix of compost, sand, and grit...

I REALLY Like what you have going on there Eric! Do you have a wider shot of the whole bed? Just curious... I like the raidpsed planting, it looks like you have them raised about 6 inches to keep a compact root structure above the soil line of the bed, but the. You are letting the roots run below it? Are they in colanders or just planted straight in the ground?

Currently I have most of my ground growing trees planted right in my vegetable garden - a few in colanders, a few on tiles... Some to grow larger, some to regain vigor... All depends on what the tree needs!

 

[FrankP999]

Eric,
I really like your grow boxes in a grow bed. What is the bottom of your boxes like? How do you keep roots inside the boxes?

Thanks

Frank

 

[KennedyMarx]

One of the most onerous parts of really paying attention to a bonsai that is being ground grown is that you have to lay down on the ground to really get a good look at it. So, I'm guessing that's why you are thinking a raised bed is a good idea. But - the dimension you are thinking means that the trees around the edges are accessible while kneeling, but all the ones in the middle will require you to bush-whack and lay on the ground.

I'd recommend that you make 2' wide by 22" long beds. That'll mean more lumber but leaving a couple feet between the rows will give you much better access. I'd also recommend that you push the height to 16" if possible.

In my raised beds I actually use 2'x2' x 16" boxes each with one tree. But - I'm not growing for volume. Each single tree that occupies one of those boxes is carefully selected. This photo is from a few years ago before I moved, but I set up some of these again in my yard in San Francisco:

The idea here is that you can see the tree from all different directions without much trouble.

Perhaps you've seen images of the raised rows of ground grown white pine in southern Japan? Check out some of Jonas' entries on bonsaitonight.com

Thanks for the advice. I've seen Jonas's post, but I'll have to go reread. I've printed off some of his articles in growing JBP (and yours as well).

I've been putting a lot of thought into this since I don't really have any bonsai related projects to work on this winter. The increased height sounds like a no brainer. I have been considering putting empty rows so I would have space to get between the plants. I was thinking I wouldn't have to worry much about horizontal space because the branches wouldn't be developing, just the trunk. I would move them to pots or boxes once I wanted to start developing the branches. I also plan to start some of my plants off (and grow them out) in pots. I'll document the whole process on my blog.

 

[KennedyMarx]

I have found leaves to be one of the best weed deterents.
This bed has 18 Zelkova cuttings in it.I am threading them all through saucers so they ground layer for smaller trees and clumps.

Were you disappointed by the growth rate of the zelkova in the colanders?

 

[Eric Schrader]

I have been considering putting empty rows so I would have space to get between the plants. I was thinking I wouldn't have to worry much about horizontal space because the branches wouldn't be developing, just the trunk. I would move them to pots or boxes once I wanted to start developing the branches. I also plan to start some of my plants off (and grow them out) in pots. I'll document the whole process on my blog.

I think that people make a mistake in planning to grow a trunk and then grow branches afterward. You should be growing and planning the primary branches at the same time as the trunk. The whole grow-trunk-chop-grow method doesn't really give great results in my opinion. Use a primary sacrifice branch to induce hormone control of the branches you want to keep to help you control them. And, defoliate, cut back or otherwise control them as you would a finished bonsai.

One other thing - ground growing of material that is very small can be a problem. You should grow out material for at least a couple years before ground growing it, otherwise you're likely to have losses from things like slugs, rabbits, or whatever else is around.

 

[Eric Schrader]

Eric,
I really like your grow boxes in a grow bed. What is the bottom of your boxes like? How do you keep roots inside the boxes?

These are oak trees in the raised beds. The beds are welded sheet steel, there are no bottoms. I previously grew the trees in 16" square by 4" deep wooden boxes. When I went to plant them in the raised beds I popped off the box sides, combed out any circling roots and then filled around with bonsai soil. Beneath the board that was the bottom of the box is just field soil. All the roots that go into the field soil will be removed so there's no reason to use anything special in my opinion.

I was at Boon's place last week and saw one of his students pulling trees from a bed that was all pumice. The root structure was pretty amazing for field grown material. I believe the top 12" was pumice and below was field soil....but there may have been a root barrier there also.

 

[coh]

I think that people make a mistake in planning to grow a trunk and then grow branches afterward. You should be growing and planning the primary branches at the same time as the trunk. The whole grow-trunk-chow-grow method doesn't really give great results in my opinion. Use a primary sacrifice branch to induce hormone control of the branches you want to keep to help you control them. And, defoliate, cut back or otherwise control them as you would a finished bonsai.

Interesting and worthy of additional discussion, I think. Many give the advice to just "grow the trunk and then worry about the branches later". This seems to work well for some species (tridents, for one), but obviously won't work at all for pines. I would guess other species fall somewhere between...probably depends on how well they heal scars and backbud from older wood?

If you take the approach of growing the trunk first, then it seems you can cram the trees in pretty close, since the main objective is to just let them grow tall and strong, then chop. Then when the trunk development is further along, you'd replant further apart to allow the branches more room. When I started planting trees out in my grow bed 3-4 years ago, this is how I understood the process...most of those trees have grown well and put on substantial girth. Some have been chopped. Many need to be dug and have root work done in the next 2 years. This becomes more difficult when the trees are close together, so keep that in mind.

This is the first "crop" of pre-bonsai material I've tried growing in the ground, and the results are yet to be determined. I'm definitely interested in hearing more about peoples experiences with ground growing.

One other thing - ground growing of material that is very small can be a problem. You should grow out material for at least a couple years before ground growing it, otherwise you're likely to have losses from things like slugs, rabbits, or whatever else is around.

Yes, I've had this problem. I've had to resort to several layers of fencing - 8' high plastic mesh for deer, several strands of electric wire plus a lower metal fence for rabbits and groundhogs. Pretty much impossible to keep voles and mice out. Fortunately they tend to do most of their damage under the snow in winter. I wrap the trunks of my smaller trees with plastic rodent mesh and that seems to work pretty well as a deterrent.

Chris

 

[Smoke]

Many give the advice to just "grow the trunk and then worry about the branches later". This seems to work well for some species (tridents, for one), but obviously won't work at all for pines.
Chris

I would be eager to read some of these articles or advice about this. Are there any links to this?

You mention it seems to work well with some species. What other species, besides tridents, would it work well with? Would it be possible to make a list of those?

 

[sorce]

Eric,
I love the sheet steel idea. In fact, that is exactly how my bed will look. Except maybe higher than 16".
The spacing is great. Looks clean.

And what do you find under, or in this case, behind, wet steel?

Rust, not insects that may eat your trees, or attract them other critters digging for them.

Thanks for the pic!

Sorce

 

[KennedyMarx]

I would be eager to read some of these articles or advice about this. Are there any links to this?

You mention it seems to work well with some species. What other species, besides tridents, would it work well with? Would it be possible to make a list of those?

What about privet, Japanese maple, ficus, bald cypress, chinese elm, and cotoneaster?

 

[coh]

I would be eager to read some of these articles or advice about this. Are there any links to this?

You mention it seems to work well with some species. What other species, besides tridents, would it work well with? Would it be possible to make a list of those?

As usual, I can't really tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but since I think this is worthy of discussion -

One example is from the oft-quoted Brent Walston:

http://evergreengardenworks.com/trunks.htm

Selected quotes:

"For really large trunks, 3+ inches, planting in the ground is probably the fastest way to go, assuming good soil, water, and you don't live in the artic tundra. This works best for deciduous trees that back break buds easily, as do elms and maples. Often I don't even think about growing branches until I have my 3 inch trunk. If you have been growing branches all along, they probably will have gotten too fat for your finished bonsai."

and

"Somewhere near the end of the process you can start growing the branches that you want to keep at the bends in the trunk that you created. "

You've shown numerous examples here and on your blog of tridents that you've either obtained for the trunks, and chopped back/removed all branches to grow the next trunk segment or a complete new set of branches. You recently wrote on another thread: "For some reason people think they have to deal with trees the way they buy them. Cut the freakin branches off that puppy and start over."

Many other references describe the process similarly (both books and on-line). I'm not going to spend the rest of the day finding them for you. My point is, this is how I understood the process when I started planting things 3-4 years ago. It doesn't mean it's right, or the best way. In particular, you're never guaranteed branches in the right place if you wait/hope for them to develop after the trunk is finished (though you can always graft). So, it seems to make sense to me to try to save and work with branches that develop in the right places early in the process - keep them alive but keep the size controlled. But again, that's not how I understood it when I started.

It'd be nice if you (and others with more experience) would share what has worked and not worked for you. Perhaps I have misinterpreted or misunderstood some of what has been recommended.

 

[Eric Schrader]

Eric,
I love the sheet steel idea. In fact, that is exactly how my bed will look. Except maybe higher than 16".
The spacing is great. Looks clean.

And what do you find under, or in this case, behind, wet steel?

Rust, not insects that may eat your trees, or attract them other critters digging for them.

Thanks for the pic!

Sorce

I didn't have much trouble either in SoCal or here in SF with bugs or moles etc in the raised beds. I put landscape fabric underneath, but that wont stop a rodent. There were moles etc in the area but they didn't seem interested in the oak trees.

As for the steel - after 2 years there was definitely some rusting going on on the inside. In fact, if you live in a wet climate then these might not last long. The outside is fine. If I had to do this again I think I'd clean the inside when they were new and either paint or otherwise coat it to prevent large sheets of rust from falling off. Still, the coating may not last long either if it's not properly applied to above the soil line.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I have trouble getting down to ground level, kneeling is a painful endeavor. I found plastic recycling bins and 20 gallon muck buckets from my local big box hardware store, and half of a 55 gallon plastic drum, make excellent "pre-fab" raised beds. The 20 gallon plastic bucket (or larger if you can find them) has enough thermal mass that winter hardiness is essentially the same in the bucket versus in the ground. They can also be moved around fairly easily if needed. Because they are raised, I can get in there and see what is going on and do pruning and weeding much easier than I could were they at ground level. Sitting on a low stool to do weeding is much more comfortable.

 

[cmeg1]

Were you disappointed by the growth rate of the zelkova in the colanders?

I still have the zelkovas in the colanders,but they are already in defoliation stage,small trees.
What is in the growing bed are cuttings I struck from them trees this year.I want them to develop a massive tap root while they grow hastily to eventually ground layer in the drilled terra cotta saucer I am threading over them in spring.I have to decide how big to drill the hole in the saucer because I want this to be a fast process.
The trees are coming out of the colanders and going back to shallow pots,just because I am going to give akadama a try and I will want the extra water holding power of a regular bonsai pot.