Getting rid of graft

[symbiotic1]

I have a young grafted japanese maple I bought last fall and disappointingly the graft is kind of high and not that attractive. It doesn't seem like it will ever look natural. I want to do something to fit rid of the grafted area entirely and start training some nice nebari and I'm wondering if there is a certain age or caliper a tree should get to before this can be done?

If I am able to start it now, I initially thought to add another 4 inches of soil then put a cd around it to trigger new roots and better nebari once it outgrows the hole. Is this a good way to go or should I try to layer it instead with a small pot around the trunk sitting on the original soil then plant the result on an inverted saucer?

 

[Adair M]

Yes.

No.

How the heck would we know?

You didn't post a picture. No details of what kind of maple other than "japanese maple". You rattled off a bunch of Techiques you've obviously read about but never done.

Post a picture. Then we can assess the graft.

One step at a time...

 

[symbiotic1]

It was meant to be a generic question as to how early in a tree's growth, specifically with Japanese Maple/Acer Palmatum, any of these techniques can be tried to bypass the graft without guaranteeing a dead tree. My specific tree is an Acer Palmatum "Bihou" with a 2.5-3 year old graft. I'm not sure how old the understock is or what variety it is. I got the tree because of it's gold/coral bark.

You're right. I haven't been practicing bonsai long enough to see any results from these techniques as this is my first spring season. I started last summer. I read about them, sure. That's partially what these forums are for. I have tried the inverted saucer technique on a few other trees I repotted into better soil from generic nursery soil in the last couple weeks. We'll see how those develop. None of those were grafted trees though which is why I am asking.

I'll post a photo when there's enough light tomorrow.

 

[Cmanz]

I would let your maple grow for at least another year and develop the trunk, and in the meantime, get some experience with air layering. I like the ring bark method coupled with wire tourniquet.
Best of luck

 

[coppice]

An airlayer of the entire tree is something I might try first on a tree of lesser value. Its not something you can retreat from once commited.

 

[Eric Group]

Take some cutting from the top of the tree and see how easy the root... Do it after new leaves have hardened off and temps are generally 70degrees and above. Use a little rooting hormone (optional really, but might increase success rate) stick them in some Pearlite ( or Pearlite with some turface... Or just use regular dirt, gain the Pearlite will just increase your chances of success).

Misting helps but is not required... If you can set a sprinkler on a timer and let them get some spray off that twice a day, keep them in medium shade.. You ought to have some success.
Do as many as you can, and by the end of the growing season you should have a couple new trees hopefully!

If none take as cuttings, then this may be a difficult species to root but the cuttings will tell you that before you kill your whole tree with an air layer. Most species of Maple I have worked with can be rooted so it ought to be fine.

The ground layer might be a safer method, but it is slower because you have to wait for the tree to thicken and layer itself on the cd...

 

[ColinFraser]

How the heck could you get a cd around a 3-year old tree?! Even if the trunk were thin enough, wouldn't you have to cut off all the roots or all the branches to thread it through? My understanding is that it was something to be done with skinny little seedlings.

. . . then put a cd around it to trigger new roots and better nebari once it outgrows the hole.

 

[ColinFraser]

An airlayer of the entire tree is something I might try first on a tree of lesser value. Its not something you can retreat from once commited.

True, but if this tree has a typically high and ugly nursery/landscape graft, then it will never be suitable for Bonsai in its present form anyway, so you don't have much to lose. Eric's suggestion of trying some cuttings first sounds like a smart way to go.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

I agree with Adair, let's see that tree first.

Take some cutting from the top of the tree and see how easy the root... Do it after new leaves have hardened off and temps are generally 70degrees and above. Use a little rooting hormone (optional really, but might increase success rate) stick them in some Pearlite ( or Pearlite with some turface... Or just use regular dirt, gain the Pearlite will just increase your chances of success).

Misting helps but is not required... If you can set a sprinkler on a timer and let them get some spray off that twice a day, keep them in medium shade.. You ought to have some success.
Do as many as you can, and by the end of the growing season you should have a couple new trees hopefully!

If none take as cuttings, then this may be a difficult species to root but the cuttings will tell you that before you kill your whole tree with an air layer. Most species of Maple I have worked with can be rooted so it ought to be fine.

The ground layer might be a safer method, but it is slower because you have to wait for the tree to thicken and layer itself on the cd...

You actually mean perlite, right? Pearlite is a very different thing. I think I've seen you mention Pearlite at least twice now, so I'm beginning to think that it might not be an autocorrect thing.

Please allow me to give my opinion on Japanese maples; regarding airlayer and cuttings, airlayer for the beginner is much easier to root than cuttings. The beginner may need to experience some trial and error or some failure before improving his technique, but it's an easier method for propagation. This is from my own experience and from what I gather among other Japanese maple collectors. As for the survival of the airlayer, I've killed airlayers of Japanese maples only from separating before the roots have matured enough (too fragile otherwise) or before there's adequate roots. Still airlayer is much simpler than cuttings on these trees.

 

[Adair M]

The reason I asked is all the little details make a difference. Some cultivars layer more easily than others. You may not even need to layer it.

 

[barrosinc]

I am starting to hate airlayers with sphagnum moss... the roots stick to it and it is so hard to get the tree clean before putting in some other medium. Perlite sounds like a good idea I might just start using the same I use for cuttings.

BTW if you are at a windy place, I have had better results using a 2L soda bottle as a green house, I always make some big holes just to help prevent fungus. The cuttings dryout a lot slower.

 

[symbiotic1]

Here's the tree. The graft seems very long and the whole joined area seems fused, not just the bottom part. So I guess it could be possible to carve away the upper part of the join but i'd just assume find a way to get rid of it, even if just for a chance to try new techniques. It was a cheap tree.

 

[Eric Group]

I agree with Adair, let's see that tree first.



You actually mean perlite, right? Pearlite is a very different thing. I think I've seen you mention Pearlite at least twice now, so I'm beginning to think that it might not be an autocorrect thing.

Please allow me to give my opinion on Japanese maples; regarding airlayer and cuttings, airlayer for the beginner is much easier to root than cuttings. The beginner may need to experience some trial and error or some failure before improving his technique, but it's an easier method for propagation. This is from my own experience and from what I gather among other Japanese maple collectors. As for the survival of the airlayer, I've killed airlayers of Japanese maples only from separating before the roots have matured enough (too fragile otherwise) or before there's adequate roots. Still airlayer is much simpler than cuttings on these trees.

Ummm.. Yeah... I am talkîng about the one that is a soil amendment not a cancer causing asbestos containing insulation. My iPad has auto correct and I generally only notice the glaring errors... I certainly hope that nobody is trying to pot their trees in insulation.

I have had success with cuttings and layers of JM, seems the cuttings have been easier and more successful in recent years, but it all depends on the type of maple, time of year... All that stuff affects it.

 

[Dav4]

I am starting to hate airlayers with sphagnum moss... the roots stick to it and it is so hard to get the tree clean before putting in some other medium. Perlite sounds like a good idea I might just start using the same I use for cuttings.

BTW if you are at a windy place, I have had better results using a 2L soda bottle as a green house, I always make some big holes just to help prevent fungus. The cuttings dryout a lot slower.

In my experience, sphagnum moss as an air-layer medium is the way to go. I've never had an air layer fail using it. As far as cleaning the moss out from the roots, the key is waiting for the roots to get big and sturdy enough to endure the bare rooting, which usually takes 2 seasons after being layered.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

I have had success with cuttings and layers of JM, seems the cuttings have been easier and more successful in recent years, but it all depends on the type of maple, time of year... All that stuff affects it.

I'll have to try your method this year, using perlite for the Japanese maple cuttings.

Here's the tree. The graft seems very long and the whole joined area seems fused, not just the bottom part. So I guess it could be possible to carve away the upper part of the join but i'd just assume find a way to get rid of it, even if just for a chance to try new techniques. It was a cheap tree.

Yes, you could start airlayer this. It's so young though, why rush it? I'd let it grow and build up some momentum before airlayering it. By then you may want to airlayer a particular portion that looks more desireable.

 

[Adair M]

Ok, I don't want to come off as a jerk...

But looking at the growth habit of that Japanese Maple, it just doesn't appear to be a good cultivar for bonsai. The internodes are extremely long. That's a bad charasteric. You only get new branches at the internodes. We prefer varieties where the internodes are short, so we get lots of twigs, and lots of branches.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I wouldn't spend any more time on this material as a bonsai. Plant it in the ground as a garden tree, yes, but a bonsai? No. There are many, many varieties that would be easier to work with.

Granted, I've not worked with this cultivar. If someone else has, and been successful with it, I'll defer to their expertise.

 

[ColinFraser]

Plant it in the ground as a garden tree, yes, but a bonsai? No

I second that . . .
And, as guessed, that is one uuhhhhglyyyy graft union. I can see why you were thinking about ways to get rid of it.

 

[symbiotic1]

Fair point. There's no way to shorten the internodes? For the sake of practicing technique then, If I still wanted to try to get rid of the graft site, regardless of if the tree will end up a bonsai or as a big potted or landscape tree, what would be my best approach? Still doing a raised ground layer?

 

[ColinFraser]

Maybe you could just bury it in the yard up to just above the graft site; that has the added benefit of hiding it whether it puts out roots above the graft or not (i.e. Ground layers itself). Nurseries will tell you not to bury a graft, so there might be some risk involved there, especially if it doesn't ever root above it . . .

 

[thumblessprimate1]

There are ways to shorten internodes, but it's some extra steps and will take time away from your bonsai journey pleasure. If you insist, there are chemical sprays/ growth regulators that stunt growth causing compact growth, but I've not tried this specifically on Japanese maples. I've also had some plants experience carbon monoxide poisoining from a gas leak at about 140 ppm. After about 3 weeks a number of the plants grew smaller leaves and shorter internodes temporarily.

If you grow it in the ground, as the maple trunk gets more girth the graft will be less noticeable. The transition from one bark to the other will be smoother. That's because the bright color of the coral bark is only on younger wood.

I wouldn't worry about that graft, but it's your tree. Do what you want to it. I'd let it grow a number of years strong and mature before trying to ground layer, if I realy just had to get rid of that graft.