Fungicide - anyone used Phyton27 on their pines successfully?

[Japonicus]

Most of my pines from previous years need spraying. 3 worst case photos attached.
I've received 3 or 4 pines this year, and at least one showing signs of same symptoms.
I think it's either dothistroma or needle cast. I've never sprayed my pines with a fungicide
and thought the trees had grown out of the infection they had over the last couple years.

Out of focus, on the 2nd pic, just above the focal point are 2 needles with white blotches
leaning towards needle rust ( https://extension.psu.edu/pine-diseases )

Now even new needles are showing this, and no buds or needles to promote any future growth
if these new shoots fail. I was happy with the back budding I got over Winter into Spring, but the curse
is still with me. The pictures are 1stly a Mugo, then 2 BPs. Problem exists to a lesser degree on my WP's
and a newly acquired BP or 2.

Here's question. Are most pine BONSAI...tolerant of this strong of a Copper fungicide?
Phyton tech support said theTREES should be ok even though no pines are listed in their accompanying brochure
of target species. But I failed to enlighten the tech that I was spraying bonsai...
Phyton27 is systemic unlike some surface Copper fungicides that can wash off and it comes with a plethora of hazmat warnings.

 

[EPM]

I don't know about Phyton27 but there are others on the forum (more experienced than I) that have mentioned using Bonide Infuse systemic fungicide successfully and safely. You could probably search that and maybe find out some familiar with fungicide use and send them a PM. I'm assuming you've tried running a search on here and google for Phyton27?

 

[Japonicus]

I don't know about Phyton27 but there are others on the forum (more experienced than I) that have mentioned using Bonide Infuse systemic fungicide successfully and safely. You could probably search that and maybe find out some familiar with fungicide use and send them a PM. I'm assuming you've tried running a search on here and google for Phyton27?

Bonide. I got a bottle of it. Not systemic. Washes away. Now there may be other Bonide products that are systemic, this I don't think is.
Copper Octanoate (Copper Salt) .08%
Copper Metallic equivalent .017 %

Whereas the Phyton27 is
Copper Sulphate Pentahydrate 21.36%
Copper as Metallic 5.5%

The difference is a Childs aspirin compared to an elephant tranquilizer by appearance
but different compounds I have to give it that, and I am no chemist.

Search does result in Maples being treated with it here on BN. Not Pines.
Thanks

 

[Japonicus]

I can do a branch and evaluate in a week...but one of these BP's is do or die I think and if I lose the tree
may not know if it were the disease it succumbed to or the Cu.
Wish it weren't this dire. I now know what to look for I think + preventative spraying as with insecticides.

 

[EPM]

That copper octonate stuff works but really only as a preventative from what I understand. I use it on apple trees when they are dormant and starting to bud out. Bonide Infuse is different and it is a systemic. Here is a link:

https://www.amazon.com/Bonide-Products-60514-Fungicide-7-5-Pound/dp/B001D0YG5Q

That is a granular product that you apply to the soil surface. You will have to consult others to figure out dosage.

If you can't wait for delivery from Amazon they do sell it at stores like Home Depot. I used it on lawn before when I lived in Texas and had a fungus problem.

 

[EPM]

Bonide. I got a bottle of it. Not systemic. Washes away. Now there may be other Bonide products that are systemic, this I don't think is.
Copper Octanoate (Copper Salt) .08%
Copper Metallic equivalent .017 %

Whereas the Phyton27 is
Copper Sulphate Pentahydrate 21.36%
Copper as Metallic 5.5%

The difference is a Childs aspirin compared to an elephant tranquilizer by appearance
but different compounds I have to give it that, and I am no chemist.

Search does result in Maples being treated with it here on BN. Not Pines.
Thanks

See this link for a discussion of Bonide Infuse and other systemics.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/stop-neeflecast-before-it-starts.33078/

In post number 1 they discuss Bonide Infuse. You must have missed it during your search. Good luck with the fungus and hope I helped.

 

[Japonicus]

See this link for a discussion of Bonide Infuse and other systemics.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/stop-neeflecast-before-it-starts.33078/

In post number 1 they discuss Bonide Infuse. You must have missed it during your search. Good luck with the fungus and hope I helped.

Thanks EPM
I didn't search Bonide on BN, only Phyton27 as suggested.
I will read that tomorrow, am off to bed for now. I had asked Adair...
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/pine-candle-state-for-first-fungicide-spray.33389/
at one point, but guess he wasn't familiar with the Phyton and pines combination since I never heard back on that in particular.
Thanks again for the link. Sounds promising

 

[Japonicus]

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/stop-neeflecast-before-it-starts.33078/
Thanks EPM again for pointing me here
Read 1st pg, looks like the Cu spray it is. Now I need a hazmat suit LOL

 

[0soyoung]

Consult the pine needle diagnostic resource. I think you'll immediately see that this isn't consistent with needle cast. Needle cast characteristically affects a discoloration in the mid-section of the needles. None in the pix are. They all (the 3 pictured trees) appear to me to have weak roots, like severe root damage in repotting. I think the tree in the second pic is already dead for all practical intents. The trees in the other two pix have short green needles which may be enough to keep them alive - give them full sun and be careful with watering (err toward dry). As long as the buds are enlarging there is hope.

Assuming buds push, they are most vulnerable to infection as soon as needles start to be expressed. That would be the time to start spraying those exotic fungicides. I just use a peroxide solution of 2 tablespoons 3% hydrogen peroxide in a quart of water. Spray every 3 or 4 days. Remove any infected needles as they will never be cured and are just a spore source. Alternatively use Daconil every two weeks (unlike peroxide it leaves an active residue) or alternate Daconil/Cleary's or exercise the nuclear option (a systemic). Frankly, I don't think you need any of that stuff, but think it trough for yourself using the decision tree. I may be wrong.

 

[Japonicus]

Consult the pine needle diagnostic resource. I think you'll immediately see that this isn't consistent with needle cast. Needle cast characteristically affects a discoloration in the mid-section of the needles. None in the pix are. They all (the 3 pictured trees) appear to me to have weak roots, like severe root damage in repotting. I think the tree in the second pic is already dead for all practical intents. The trees in the other two pix have short green needles which may be enough to keep them alive - give them full sun and be careful with watering (err toward dry). As long as the buds are enlarging there is hope.

Assuming buds push, they are most vulnerable to infection as soon as needles start to be expressed. That would be the time to start spraying those exotic fungicides. I just use a peroxide solution of 2 tablespoons 3% hydrogen peroxide in a quart of water. Spray every 3 or 4 days. Remove any infected needles as they will never be cured and are just a spore source. Alternatively use Daconil every two weeks (unlike peroxide it leaves an active residue) or alternate Daconil/Cleary's or exercise the nuclear option (a systemic). Frankly, I don't think you need any of that stuff, but think it trough for yourself using the decision tree. I may be wrong.

Clearly the tips of the needles to the mid point, have died on a majority of the needles on the 2nd tree.

We have better natural lighting this afternoon and was able to get you into the needles better.
Look at these pics, and tell me you wouldn't be treating with a fungicide...
You can see the spores I assume, clustered in black on the dead needle cluster.
I think it was 2, maybe 3 years ago, this pine had a black (fungus?) about the sheaths. Sort of gummy it was best I remember.
It seemed last year to have rebounded with better growth, and I did Fall pruning and needle thinning.
This early Spring, the back buds on old wood looked promising. Now with extension, it is spiraling downwards.
I am confident the roots are, were healthy up to this point, on all my pines from previous years.


I am using 2 infected trees in these photos today, but all my pines have to some degree, brown needle tips, yellow to brown mid ways and mostly green mid ways back to the sheath.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/all-aboard-the-mugo-train.19019/page-138#post-554112
^ please see post 2,750 here to see the banding on my mugho pine needles. It's very disheartening.

 

[0soyoung]

It's very disheartening.

An understatement!

My belief is that nothing but a systemic can kill the fungus inside the leaves, so my habit is to remove the affected needles because they are just sources and then spray. Right now, as new needles are just emerging from the extending from the buds/candle is the time pines are most susceptible to infection. So I would spray, spray, spray hoping to keep those new needles from becoming infected. I don't think sprays, regardless of what you use, can do anything other than kill sprores on the needle surfaces.

I'm lucky to have had only a very few serious fungal issues. Certainly nothing even remotely like this.

Maybe @Dav4 has some better help for you. IIRC he is in the midst of a southern pine forest with perpetual needle cast.

 

[River's Edge]

An understatement!

My belief is that nothing but a systemic can kill the fungus inside the leaves, so my habit is to remove the affected needles because they are just sources and then spray. Right now, as new needles are just emerging from the extending from the buds/candle is the time pines are most susceptible to infection. So I would spray, spray, spray hoping to keep those new needles from becoming infected. I don't think sprays, regardless of what you use, can do anything other than kill sprores on the needle surfaces.

I'm lucky to have had only a very few serious fungal issues. Certainly nothing even remotely like this.

Maybe @Dav4 has some better help for you. IIRC he is in the midst of a southern pine forest with perpetual needle cast.

The advice that osoyoung has given is correct. I would suggest that if the tree's bounce back, it is important to let them recover with no further decandling or cut back for a full season. It is often wise to skip a year if the candles are weaker or the interior shoots need to strengthen. If we work aggressively, the tree is weaker and much more susceptible to disease. We have a lot of needlecast in the Pacific Northwest and must work to keep it at bay every year. It is more a situation of management rather than cure.
Best of luck with these.

 

[Japonicus]

An understatement!

My belief is that nothing but a systemic can kill the fungus inside the leaves, so my habit is to remove the affected needles because they are just sources and then spray. Right now, as new needles are just emerging from the extending from the buds/candle is the time pines are most susceptible to infection. So I would spray, spray, spray hoping to keep those new needles from becoming infected. I don't think sprays, regardless of what you use, can do anything other than kill sprores on the needle surfaces.

I'm lucky to have had only a very few serious fungal issues. Certainly nothing even remotely like this.

Maybe @Dav4 has some better help for you. IIRC he is in the midst of a southern pine forest with perpetual needle cast.

Well say good bye to an old friend. This was my 1st BP bonsai given me by a wholesaler in California. I was buying junipers from Lowes
and called the business. The lady said she could not sell me one since I was not wholesale. She sent it to me free of charge!
Here's pics I have of it 2008,12 and now. I think I got it in 2005, and hated the nebari and twin trunk. I have been chasing buds back
since '08 and thought this year was getting a bit closer to tightening up some more.

 

[Japonicus]

The advice that osoyoung has given is correct. I would suggest that if the tree's bounce back, it is important to let them recover with no further decandling or cut back for a full season. It is often wise to skip a year if the candles are weaker or the interior shoots need to strengthen. If we work aggressively, the tree is weaker and much more susceptible to disease. We have a lot of needlecast in the Pacific Northwest and must work to keep it at bay every year. It is more a situation of management rather than cure.
Best of luck with these.

Thanks Frank. I had no plans of styling or root work at all this year. No candle work, just let it be free and feed heavy.
Oh well. I will forever spray this systemic on all my pines

 

[0soyoung]

Well say good bye to an old friend

Bye.



I don't mean to be heartless.
Have a drink and get on with your program to not have this happen again.