Ficus defoliation experiment...

[Mellow Mullet]

If you increase Health and ramification to the genetic
limit, with as much sunlight as the tree can handle
The leaves come in smaller and branchlets are finer.

Defoliation is used only for tidying the work
Good Day
Anthony

* However, that does not always mean more dense

An example of Lush/Health --------- smaller leaves, full sun and ore branchlets.

View attachment 204960

What is the "generic limit"?

 

[Anthony]

genetic- @Mellow Mullet
Max leaves a plant can have for a given trunk size.
Looks like previous image .

The basis of Lingnan [ grow and clip ]
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Mellow Mullet]

genetic- @Mellow Mullet
Max leaves a plant can have for a given trunk size.
Looks like previous image .

The basis of Lingnan [ grow and clip ]
Good Day
Anthony

Nevermind, I read it as generic instead of genetic. Gotta stop speed reading at work.

 

[MrBeto]

Beto. Don’t defoliate tree in development. Leaves get little because tree gets weak. You don’t want a weak tree if it’s in development. Little leaves are for show. Big leaves mean strong tree - good for development. Thin leaves and/or cut them in 1/2, but don’t completely defoliate your tree. Save that for when you’re ready to show.

There are zero reasons to remove all the leaves on a bonsai in development.

S

Thanks for your input Scott. Always on point. I had to remove quite a few because of sunburn. I’ll let it recover and take it from there in styling terms. But the style is already there. I guess I’ll just keep up with.

 

[markyscott]

Thanks for your input Scott. Always on point. I had to remove quite a few because of sunburn. I’ll let it recover and take it from there in styling terms. But the style is already there. I guess I’ll just keep up with.

People will insist on doing this no matter what anyone says. Proof is in the pudding:

Partial defoliation and cut back, but I did not prune the growing tips. Tons of back budding - I did not have to remove all the leaves on the tree or snip off the terminal bud to get it.

 

[Starfox]

Read his article. Here are my thoughts:

1. I agree with his point that defoliation creates small internodes and little leaves. That’s how a weakened tree responds.
2. I disagree that removing a trees food source encourages the tree to grow thicker more quickly. What happens is that you’ll get more root growth for a time until auxin is restored (it essentially forces the tree into a spring reset), but the top growth essentially stops
3. I agree that removing the terminal bud will force the tree to push buds further back on the branch, but that has nothing to do with defoliation. If you remove the terminal bud even without defoliation this will happen. If you let the tree grow without pruning the growing tip this will happen also.

So why do it? There is no reason to weaken a tree in development in order to get little leaves. That’s what we do when we get a tree ready to show. If you want your tree to backbud, allow the branch to extend and get strong. You’ll get backbudding all along the branch. Then cut back to new growing shoot - that’s a huge drop in auxin and will encourage further backbudding far along the branch. If you defoliate and just pinch off the growing tip you’ll get a burst of growth out at the end - not where you want it. Trees in development that have been repeatedly defoliated all look the same - long straight branches with no branching close to the trunk and a burst of foliage out at the tips.

Scott

Well at least he gave a pretty detailed explanation of his reasoning and the science behind it which is more detail than other postings on the matter.
Jerry Meislik for example states his methodology for speeding up a small or weaker branch is to leave that branch alone and defoliate the rest of the tree which is another contradiction to what Adam says and both methods are seemingly in contradiction to what other people say too. Jerry is much more vague, at least on his defoliation page but he also states "Outdoor tropical growers are lucky and with healthy trees can defoliate even more frequently."
Without expanding on why they are lucky or why they would want to defoliate more frequently. His approach seems much more conservative.
http://www.bonsaihunk.us/Defoliatingfigs.html

So what are we to make of it, I could probably find another bunch of people saying differing things for differing reasons too. And for what it is worth if it works for them to get the results they desire then I can't see what the issue is. Both Adam and Jerry have the pudding to prove it as well as do many posters. here and elsewhere.
For me I want to see the results first hand, learn by doing. I want to take these contradictions and see if there is a reason to prefer one way over another although I suspect the results could indeed be negligible enough to not come out with a clearer answer.

You are right though, people will do it no matter what, some swear by it and others don't. I know the people who can and do do it 3 or 4 times a year have their reasons and it's not just to get a tree ready for a show. But it is ficus and many F sp. can handle it, repeatedly and without death.

But that is all really a digression, I want to see if certain claims hold up or not and the best way to check it is to do it for myself then I can say one thing or another and not claim "he said this" or "he does that". And when all is said and done after a few years I'm going to way too many ficus for my needs

 

[Anthony]

On our side the Willow leaf naturally self defoliates
once a year.
Never seen a Ficus b do that.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Mellow Mullet]

For what it's worth, I don't do it often, I really just did it to get a good look at the branch structure and to wire it out, and only on the large benjamina. I have not done it on neriflora, or felt the need to, but have cut back pretty hard to get better branch structure. The thing about Adam is that he shows all of these trees that he defoliates but never really shows the results. Really on all the trees on his blog. Sometimes there is an update a year or two later, but it is hard to see the progress. Not knocking him, he seems to be a good guy and a very good writer, it is just an observation.

 

[Starfox]

For what it's worth, I don't do it often, I really just did it to get a good look at the branch structure and to wire it out, and only on the large benjamina. I have not done it on neriflora, or felt the need to, but have cut back pretty hard to get better branch structure. The thing about Adam is that he shows all of these trees that he defoliates but never really shows the results. Really on all the trees on his blog. Sometimes there is an update a year or two later, but it is hard to see the progress. Not knocking him, he seems to be a good guy and a very good writer, it is just an observation.

Yep, for me getting a good look for trimming and wiring it is very useful with the added advantage of increased back budding and quicker ramification development.
And yeah I agree about Adams blog which is another reason to self test as oppose to take it as gospel.

I don't really want to argue the pros and cons of defoliation to ficus as seemingly you will get differing responses, that can be for another thread. Here I'm just going to follow through and test what has been said by some.

This guy obviously thought the same and was probably reading the same text Adam was for his post, it is a shame no updates have been posted.
http://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22940&hilit=defoliating+ficus
So hopefully I'll follow through on it, or kill all my cuttings or move house or frost or something but there is no harm in trying.
I'm going to grab a bunch more cuttings from a street tree next time I take the dog for a walk so I'll have more to play with.

Oh and to add a bit of info I forgot, the first cuttings from the op the height of the defoliated one is 17cm and the other 15cm.

 

[markyscott]

Well at least he gave a pretty detailed explanation of his reasoning and the science behind it which is more detail than other postings on the matter.
Jerry Meislik for example states his methodology for speeding up a small or weaker branch is to leave that branch alone and defoliate the rest of the tree which is another contradiction to what Adam says and both methods are seemingly in contradiction to what other people say too. Jerry is much more vague, at least on his defoliation page but he also states "Outdoor tropical growers are lucky and with healthy trees can defoliate even more frequently."
Without expanding on why they are lucky or why they would want to defoliate more frequently. His approach seems much more conservative.
http://www.bonsaihunk.us/Defoliatingfigs.html

So what are we to make of it, I could probably find another bunch of people saying differing things for differing reasons too. And for what it is worth if it works for them to get the results they desire then I can't see what the issue is. Both Adam and Jerry have the pudding to prove it as well as do many posters. here and elsewhere.
For me I want to see the results first hand, learn by doing. I want to take these contradictions and see if there is a reason to prefer one way over another although I suspect the results could indeed be negligible enough to not come out with a clearer answer.

You are right though, people will do it no matter what, some swear by it and others don't. I know the people who can and do do it 3 or 4 times a year have their reasons and it's not just to get a tree ready for a show. But it is ficus and many F sp. can handle it, repeatedly and without death.

But that is all really a digression, I want to see if certain claims hold up or not and the best way to check it is to do it for myself then I can say one thing or another and not claim "he said this" or "he does that". And when all is said and done after a few years I'm going to way too many ficus for my needs

I’m just offering a different point of view - everyone makes their own choices in the end. After a few years if you’re unsatisfied with the progress of your tree, perhaps you’ll think back on this conversation or the documentation I’ve detailed elsewhere and realize that there is another way. Everything we do has a reason. The reason for complete defoliation is to weaken the tree in order to make little leaves.

S

 

[thomas22]

I’m just offering a different point of view - everyone makes their own choices in the end. After a few years if you’re unsatisfied with the progress of your tree, perhaps you’ll think back on this conversation or the documentation I’ve detailed elsewhere and realize that there is another way. Everything we do has a reason. The reason for complete defoliation is to weaken the tree in order to make little leaves.

S

Scott, can I get your opinion on balancing the trees energy. I have a ficus that the trunk and main branches are where I want it and side branches are very strong but the top is very weak and I need ramification. I was thinking of defoliating the lower branches in spring and letting the top gain strength. Is this correct?

 

[markyscott]

Scott, can I get your opinion on balancing the trees energy. I have a ficus that the trunk and main branches are where I want it and side branches are very strong but the top is very weak and I need ramification. I was thinking of defoliating the lower branches in spring and letting the top gain strength. Is this correct?

Having not seen the tree, it’s difficult to say, but it’s highly likely I wouldn’t defoliate a weak tree - even if just parts of it were weak. Just prune back the stronger sections a bit more and let the weaker parts alone.

S