Fall collecting

[Frenchymanny]

For the last few years I collected my trees in the wild in early spring and I got a 100% success rate. This year I decided to collect some trees in the fall. We are talking indigenous species. Thoughts?

 

[BobbyLane]

Its not a new concept.

Collecting Deciduous Trees For Bonsai In Autumn/Fall – Bonsai4Me

bonsai4me.com

Im not a collector myself, but have transferred/repotted many nursery trees, mainly native deciduous, during this period:
The bare root period is the dormant season, typically from November to March, when plants are dug up and sold without soil or a pot, making them cheaper and easier to transport. During this time, the plant has ceased active growth, so its energy is focused on root storage, making it the best time for transplanting and allowing the extensive root system to establish directly in the soil.

and I repot in spring too. Depends really.

 

[rockm]

It’s a poor alternative. Sure it can be done but it offers no advantage over early spring. More downside than up though. This is backed up in books etc. read Michael Hagedorn’s “Bonsai Heresy”. He a champion of busting bonsai myths. He is not keen on spring collecting for many reasons.

Fall collecting is a SECONDARY collection time. It’s not optimal and can reduce success. Be patient unless the tree absolutely has to be collected because of access or threat.

 

[Frenchymanny]

Well this is the answer I was afraid of, and this is in line with my gut feelings

 

[River's Edge]

We are talking indigenous species. Thoughts?

Indigenous species would include both conifers and deciduous I believe. I consider the fall to be a poor time to collect deciduous species, and a second best time to collect conifers. The difference being the degree of root formation in the fat and the varied timing of dormancy between native deciduous and conifers. Briefly summed up conifers are a better bet and with care have a considerable success rate when collected in the fall. By this I mean just after the summer slow down of growth and before dormancy. It is best to time the collection after the dry summer period and the fall rains have started, that is when the tree puts on a spurt prior to dormancy. Shorter window, needs careful timing but is viable. Effective from my experience with Mountain Hemlock, Shore Pine, Sub alone Fir, Engleman Spruce. Thought it was worth mentioning for those who understand that fall collecting of conifers is effective if done right.

 

[River's Edge]

He is not keen on spring collecting for many reasons.

Wondering if this was what you intended to say?

 

[Frenchymanny]

v Springs seems to be the best time. I collected a sweet hemlock. We'll see how it goes\

 

[rockm]

Yep. He’s Not keen on fall collecting. He notes it is a holdover from nursery practices and is not all that applicable to bonsai and possibly fatal.

 

[DeepSouth]

In my area, early Fall is one of, if not the worst times to collect deciduous species (I have not tried conifers). I have attempted it a few times and have had one single tree survive.

You want to collect at a time when the tree is about to (but has not yet started to) push new growth. While root growth can be strong in the Fall, the tree is still in the process of moving sugars from the trunks and branches into the roots. Typically for deciduous species, we do a trunk chop during collection and if you do that in the Fall you remove all of the tree's energy. At the same time, it now has the entire late Fall and Winter with open wounds that are not healing fast enough to prevent pathogens from entering the tree. And in some areas, including here, any new roots you do get are very vulnerable to freeze/frost so you need to protect them from that.

The line between Winter and Spring right as the buds begin to swell is the best time to collect here. Late Winter is good for most species as well.

 

[River's Edge]

What you said was he is not keen on spring collecting? that iis why I questioned it? I have the book and understand what he supports and promotes. Also one of his students for several years. That's why I questioned what you said?

He is not keen on spring collecting for many reasons.

"He is not keen on spring collecting for many reasons."

 

[rockm]

What you said was he is not keen on spring collecting? that iis why I questioned it? I have the book and understand what he supports and promotes. Also one of his students for several years. That's why I questioned what you said?


"He is not keen on spring collecting for many reasons."

Of course. Thank you for alerting me to my stupid mistype. I meant he's not keen on fall collecting.

 

[River's Edge]

Often the best collecting times can be determined by the collecting site, local climate as well as the species and natural growth patterns. For example many great collecting sites are more accessible in the fall than they are in the spring time. Bog areas in particular are much more accessible after a dry summer than during spring runoff. High mountain areas can be difficult to;t to access in early spring or even early summer with melting snow pack and covered crevasses. Here are two pictures to illustrate my point.
Sub Alpine firs. One collected the 26th of June, 2017, with difficult footing, melting snow and I dropped one leg in a large snow covered crack that day walking across the crust to look at a tree. The other collected nearby in the fall ( September 28th ) with dry clear conditions. Both survived and are doing well. I varied the collecting process to adapt to the time of year in root treatment and recovery process. But that is common in collection where one adapts based on what one finds and the particular circumstances. Collecting in the fall requires greater care and additional steps. in some climates such as Vancouver island the extra humidity and relative warmth during the winter is a big benefit for collectors. Cold and dry with colder freezing temperatures would be more of a problem for collectors.
last two pictures are to show that the two survived and are progressing down the bonsai road.

 

[Frenchymanny]

Thank you all for the comments. To summarize our winter here is to harsh on a tree recovering so I'll have to be patient for this loooong winter coming.

 

[Animron]

Ask yourself why nurseries sell the most bare rooted trees in the fall (when the trees shed their leaves) and spring (when the buds are opening). Probably because these are the best times to transplant trees. Both spring and fall have their pros and cons. Of course, it should be noted that this is exclusively for transplanting into the ground, not into pots (especially not into shallow and small ones), where in winter the soil usually freezes only at the top layer (somewhere between 1 and 3 inches deep), so the pruned and shortened roots are mostly in the deeper layer, which does not freeze or freezes only occasionally. However, if the soil freezes more than 5 or 6 inches deep for a longer period of time, it is of course better to transplant in the spring.

As for transplanting from nature directly into pots, in this case autumn is not the best time, unless you put the dug up tree in a cold place where it does not freeze, e.g. in an unheated greenhouse, basement or garage (this only applies to deciduous trees!). If you don't have that option, then it's safer to transplant in the spring, but you can also transplant in late summer (especially conifers), in the end of August or early September in my zone, as long as you don't cut too many roots and the tree is fairly young. The number of roots that are cut is also important: the more roots you cut, the safer it is to transplant in the spring. If you need to shorten some very thick roots, then spring is definitely a much better time to do it.

Edit: i see you are in a 3b zone, so don't even think about fall collecting, unless you have an unheated greenhouse or garage

 

[Frenchymanny]

Animron I have an unheated garage, but i goes down to minus 20 F so I don’t think it is even a solution!

 

[NaoTK]

In the *PNW* the fall is an excellent time to collect, and some of our famous folks like Randy Knight advocate for fall for a few reasons. Firstly, we have cold rain all winter, so you get the tree on a heat mat in the rain and the pot will be full of roots by spring. We basically have 4 months of foliage misting to recover and hit spring running. Secondly, we have snow in the high elevations where we collect, so by the time the snow melts the daytime temps are in the 80s in the valleys.

 

[PA_Penjing]

I collected one deciduous tree in the fall and it surved just fine but when spring came I didn't get as many buds coming off the trunk as I would normally expect. But it was also a species I had never used before (hophornbeam). This year as an experiment I chopped and "collect" a Japanese maple from a large nursery pot just to see how it would do. I know this species far better so we'll see how it reacts in spring. But so far my crazy limited experience says stick with spring

 

[BrianBay9]

As @NaoTK describes, fall collecting is situation and climate specific. It also can depend on the species collected. I've done fall collecting of Ponderosa pines in the Rockies because of the spring snow issue mentioned above. I've done fall collecting of Quercus agrifolia in California because the winters are so mild and short. Both gave me maybe slightly less viability than spring collecting, but often better access to collecting sites.

 

[Hartinez]

Great comments all around. For my climate in the high desert, late summer is one of the best times to collect for similar reasons to what @NaoTK suggests. Our monsoons come late summer and we are getting rain weekly and sometimes daily till fall comes. With the continued warmth and higher humidity from the rain the roots seem to establish themselves well Before winter comes

 

[ponderingsage]

Often the best collecting times can be determined by the collecting site, local climate as well as the species and natural growth patterns. For example many great collecting sites are more accessible in the fall than they are in the spring time. Bog areas in particular are much more accessible after a dry summer than during spring runoff. High mountain areas can be difficult to;t to access in early spring or even early summer with melting snow pack and covered crevasses. Here are two pictures to illustrate my point.
Sub Alpine firs. One collected the 26th of June, 2017, with difficult footing, melting snow and I dropped one leg in a large snow covered crack that day walking across the crust to look at a tree. The other collected nearby in the fall ( September 28th ) with dry clear conditions. Both survived and are doing well. I varied the collecting process to adapt to the time of year in root treatment and recovery process. But that is common in collection where one adapts based on what one finds and the particular circumstances. Collecting in the fall requires greater care and additional steps. in some climates such as Vancouver island the extra humidity and relative warmth during the winter is a big benefit for collectors. Cold and dry with colder freezing temperatures would be more of a problem for collectors.
last two pictures are to show that the two survived and are progressing down the bonsai road.

This is what I was gonna say by the time we get up at elevation in the mountains to collect ,it’s often times summer