Dwarf scots pine no.3 repot and progression post - please criticise

[Manbris]

Hi - here is number 3- a bit challenging to find the root base this one …

I also figured out how to stabilise the growth bag - dig a hole with soil mix then fill rather than the other way around- a lot easier this way.

Shame - there is few air pockets I struggled to fill with this - it is in the middle section and not obvious but my hand can feel it. I guess it would be ok for now?

Also would the Scots pine tree roots got cold damage with these growth bags? - not sure.

Thanks! Two more to go.

 

[River's Edge]

Hi - here is number 3- a bit challenging to find the root base this one …

I also figured out how to stabilise the growth bag - dig a hole with soil mix then fill rather than the other way around- a lot easier this way.

Shame - there is few air pockets I struggled to fill with this - it is in the middle section and not obvious but my hand can feel it. I guess it would be ok for now?

Also would the Scots pine tree roots got cold damage with these growth bags? - not sure.

Thanks! Two more to go.

Given the age and developmental stage of these pines, have you considered using grow boxes to develop nebari suitable for bonsai pots? Containers that are wider and shallower than grow bags to promote thicker surface roots and a shallower root ball to eventually fit in a Bonsai Pot. What do you have in mind by using the deeper round grow bags at this stage. It seems to me that the trunk size is suitable and the branching will need lots of compaction and reduction. Have you found the grow bags suitable for nebari and root ball formation?

 

[Manbris]

Given the age and developmental stage of these pines, have you considered using grow boxes to develop nebari suitable for bonsai pots? Containers that are wider and shallower than grow bags to promote thicker surface roots and a shallower root ball to eventually fit in a Bonsai Pot. What do you have in mind by using the deeper round grow bags at this stage. It seems to me that the trunk size is suitable and the branching will need lots of compaction and reduction. Have you found the grow bags suitable for nebari and root ball formation?

Thanks very much for your comment.

Grow boxes- such a good idea- I totally agree. Probably will be for next repots. I cannot seem to find them cheap in the UK... I also use pond baskets for smaller trees and they work well.

Although not optimal-I will try to use the widest grow bags I have. At this stage just to grow roots better- no particular purposes- just trying to replace the organic nursery soil with a better mix and air prune the roots/do some root work. One strength of grow bag is I think it will be easier to take it out and gradually reduce pot size yearly while having a lot of roots. So far it has worked with other plants I tried. But as you say, it is not suited for growing/developing surface roots. Thank you.

Agree on the compaction and reduction -strong roots are the foundation for these? when to think about styling?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

when to think about styling?

Next year. They will need some time to recover and solidify in the pot. Even if the roots don't grow (see below) then it's best to leave them alone for now. Wiring might shift them around, and damage the new growing roots.
I leave my trees on the bench year round and not even the shallowest of pots have experienced root damage from any cold. You being in a similar climate would have your trees behave the same.

One critique I have on your recently posted repots has been said before, but if you only remove the outside of the dirtball, it would be equal to not repotting at all; there's now more root space, but no guarantee the roots will want to go there. The benefits of bonsai soil can only do their magic if the roots have no other place to go. I understand that being precautious is important and voiced a lot by the community. I get it entirely. But to advance a tree means you have to dare to take some risk.
With a core made of mud or potting soil, the watering will become difficult and the roots might not want to escape that chunk of soil. Or they might all escape, leaving you no fine roots to cut back to. This is always a tricky balance that you will learn to master over time. Review your repotting results next spring, and please tag me in that message. I'd love to be proven wrong!
A piece of advice I want to give you is to find some kind of wooden skewer you can jam underneath the base of the tree into the soil. Take that out before you water, see if it's wet, moist or dry. This would help you in getting to know whether or not you're drowning the root core or not. Only water when it's getting moist-to-dry, and water thoroughly until it's wet again.

 

[Manbris]

Next year. They will need some time to recover and solidify in the pot. Even if the roots don't grow (see below) then it's best to leave them alone for now. Wiring might shift them around, and damage the new growing roots.
I leave my trees on the bench year round and not even the shallowest of pots have experienced root damage from any cold. You being in a similar climate would have your trees behave the same.

One critique I have on your recently posted repots has been said before, but if you only remove the outside of the dirtball, it would be equal to not repotting at all; there's now more root space, but no guarantee the roots will want to go there. The benefits of bonsai soil can only do their magic if the roots have no other place to go. I understand that being precautious is important and voiced a lot by the community. I get it entirely. But to advance a tree means you have to dare to take some risk.
With a core made of mud or potting soil, the watering will become difficult and the roots might not want to escape that chunk of soil. Or they might all escape, leaving you no fine roots to cut back to. This is always a tricky balance that you will learn to master over time. Review your repotting results next spring, and please tag me in that message. I'd love to be proven wrong!
A piece of advice I want to give you is to find some kind of wooden skewer you can jam underneath the base of the tree into the soil. Take that out before you water, see if it's wet, moist or dry. This would help you in getting to know whether or not you're drowning the root core or not. Only water when it's getting moist-to-dry, and water thoroughly until it's wet again.

Thanks so much! Food for thought - how far to go into the core is exactly to the point on my mind. I would like to take a bit more risk. For this HBR technique - do we want to see the HBR side to grow a lot stronger than the other side?

Please tell me more on the watering bit- since I have HBR the pines. They will drain at different rates, how would I know when to water - from which side of the root ball?- the old soil bit or the new one? or both- two sticks? how far should I push them in the soil? and how close to the base?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

The HBR side should grow as strong as the rest, ideally. We can't really control that. The root type and branching of the roots should be more like what we desire to see on the HBR side, which is why we do it. Having stronger growth on one side of the cake isn't always a good thing: it makes consecutive repotting a problem if there are no strong growths on the side you still need to work.

Find the muddy side of the root base, and stick the skewer in there. Right underneath the trunk. You should water the soil until its saturated so it shouldn't matter which side you water first. Push the skewer as deep as you can to get the most information of the whole core. If you need more skewers, that's not an issue. One should be enough, two should be good. Three is a bit much as it's just extra work for you.
Jam one in the freedraining part for good measure maybe and you can develop a sense of how different the drying can be in the different compartiments.

Does that answer your questions?

 

[Manbris]

The HBR side should grow as strong as the rest, ideally. We can't really control that. The root type and branching of the roots should be more like what we desire to see on the HBR side, which is why we do it. Having stronger growth on one side of the cake isn't always a good thing: it makes consecutive repotting a problem if there are no strong growths on the side you still need to work.

Find the muddy side of the root base, and stick the skewer in there. Right underneath the trunk. You should water the soil until its saturated so it shouldn't matter which side you water first. Push the skewer as deep as you can to get the most information of the whole core. If you need more skewers, that's not an issue. One should be enough, two should be good. Three is a bit much as it's just extra work for you.
Jam one in the freedraining part for good measure maybe and you can develop a sense of how different the drying can be in the different compartiments.

Does that answer your questions?

Indeed! Thanks so much- will get a chopstick in. When should I start fertilising after repotting? A month? I got dried chicken manure, sea weed liquid and also blood and bone mix power. It is from last year I hope they do not expire…

 

[Shibui]

When should I start fertilising after repotting? A month? I got dried chicken manure, sea weed liquid and also blood and bone mix power. It is from last year I hope they do not expire…

Fertilisers do not expire. if stored dry the organics should be good for years.

My trees all have Osmocote (or similar alternative) mixed into the potting soil so they all get fertiliser right from the first water. No problems in nearly 40 years of growing so I assume this means the 'wait a week/month before fertilising' is another bonsai myth. Having said that, most healthy trees have enough stored goodies to last a few weeks so waiting a couple of weeks won't hurt.

Note that the fertilisers you have on hand all have different combinations of nutrients and none really have all the nutrients plants require. Blood and bone has plenty of N and P but virtually no K. Seaweed has good levels of trace elements but low (and variable) levels of N,P and K. Down here seaweed products can't legally be called fertiliser because of the variable levels of nutrient depending where and when the seaweed was collected. Dried chicken manure has high N and useful amounts of P and K and micronutrients but actual nutrient levels depend on the source. The high N is sometimes referred to as 'hot' manure and many users are wary of using too much for fear of fertiliser 'burn'. Probably better suited for gardens where the soil can buffer sudden and unbalanced nutrient additions
A combination of all 3 or alternating them will probably give good results in theory but it would be a lot safer and easier to look for a good 'complete' fertiliser with known and reliable levels of nutrient.

 

[Manbris]

Fertilisers do not expire. if stored dry the organics should be good for years.

My trees all have Osmocote (or similar alternative) mixed into the potting soil so they all get fertiliser right from the first water. No problems in nearly 40 years of growing so I assume this means the 'wait a week/month before fertilising' is another bonsai myth. Having said that, most healthy trees have enough stored goodies to last a few weeks so waiting a couple of weeks won't hurt.

Note that the fertilisers you have on hand all have different combinations of nutrients and none really have all the nutrients plants require. Blood and bone has plenty of N and P but virtually no K. Seaweed has good levels of trace elements but low (and variable) levels of N,P and K. Down here seaweed products can't legally be called fertiliser because of the variable levels of nutrient depending where and when the seaweed was collected. Dried chicken manure has high N and useful amounts of P and K and micronutrients but actual nutrient levels depend on the source. The high N is sometimes referred to as 'hot' manure and many users are wary of using too much for fear of fertiliser 'burn'. Probably better suited for gardens where the soil can buffer sudden and unbalanced nutrient additions
A combination of all 3 or alternating them will probably give good results in theory but it would be a lot safer and easier to look for a good 'complete' fertiliser with known and reliable levels of nutrient.

Thanks so much Shibui- are there any organic type of fertiliser could be called complete? For complete- do you mean high N P K?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Dried chicken manure should be enough. Save the bone meal for when you see deficiencies and give the liquid kelp once every three weeks or so.

 

[Shibui]

Thanks so much Shibui- are there any organic type of fertiliser could be called complete? For complete- do you mean high N P K?

NO! high NPK does not = complete.
Complete = the full range of nutrients that plants need.
That means NPK of around 4:1:2 (remember that any multiples of this or close by will be equivalent + trace elements that plants require for health and growth.
I've never seen an organic that is complete. They all lack one or another nutrient which is why I rely on a combination of different fertilisers to give my potted plants a 'balanced' diet.