Dumb Question: How Does Bonsai Progress?

[Cajunrider]

I'm sure this is a dumb question, but I figure this is the place for it. So I've been watching a variety of videos about bonsai and they seem to fall into two categories: 1. Trimming up a small specimen so it's roots and a leader, in preparation for its future growth. 2. Taking a pre-established tree and refining it in this or that way.

What I don't understand is how it gets from point 1 to point 2 and what's in between? It seems like I can learn how to prepare a thing that looks like a bendy twig, or to work on something big. But I don't get the progression at all - I know a lot of it takes years to develop, but I'd love to know what it looks like and what should be done in between. How does the bendy twig turn into branching (say, on a field maple or something like that), thick stems, and a full tree?

I guess what I'm asking is, what does the tree experience as a "tween" tree?

I am a simple man. For me going from Point 1 bendy twig to Point 2 Pre-established tree simply means that in some way the tree has to grow that girth. That growth can be quick by putting the tree into the ground or good size grow box and allowing the tree to attain the desired trunk size then chopping it multiple times to get the taper needed. This fast method requires trying to heal the cut wounds and finding clever way to hide them while they are healing. For this method the tween tree is often a chopped tree with decent trunk but big scars. Lots of time people take a short cut by buying a bigger tree or collecting it in the wild and chopping it to start instead of growing it from seed or seedling.

Or that growth can be done slowly by continuing to trim the tree while it was young to prevent it from growing tall. This will take a lot longer to attain the desired trunk size but then there is no big scar and the tree looks natural. For this method the tween tree simply looks like a stunted tree with bigger trunk than normal. With this method the growth can be made moderately faster by growing sacrifice branches.

Of course when you get deeper into this, you will find how species respond to the above mentioned methods. Some don't respond to chopping and will not back bud when chopped. Some won't heal when when chopped either. Some will require planning for where the buds will be since the buds don't come easily.

 

[MHBonsai]

Here’s a bunch organized by type of tree

Progressions

For the past several years I've been compiling progressions that have been helpful to me. Typically I'm looking for good photo documentation of bonsai transformations, with descriptions of how/what/when. Thanks for all that have helped me put this list together - hopefully it's a useful...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[KleinM]

Hopefully one day my YouTube channel will be able to show the inbe(tween) steps. Most of my bonsai are still very young but if the trees survive and I am still here then you'll be able to see all my trees' progress over the years . I know that Nigel Sanders, The Bonsai Zone has a playlist for all his trees where you can view the progress over the years.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

When I first started I made the mistake of pruning too often. I never gave my trees a chance to grow out.
Later I took the advice to make the smallest tree possible to heart and continued to remove more of the larger branches.
Now I’m more content to wait and let the needed branches extend first knowing that I can prune when it’s time.

 

[Balbs]

Bonsai with Japanese Maples https://a.co/d/1QtNuIq

I’m pretty sure that what you’re after is in this book. Some of the info may be outdated, but many of the techniques aren’t. He has good illustrations showing how to grow out, cut back, wire for direction, and repeat the process. I’m pretty new to the hobby, had the same question a few years back, and this book helped. By no means will you read this and suddenly be a bonsai master, but I think it helps visualize the direction you’re going.

 

[Paradox]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people nowawadays never even think to look at a book first and just expect to find all the truth online from un proven sources!!!!

I blame it on social media, UTube and perhaps our educational system is also partly to blame. Not saying this applies to DeutschElmDisease but people are inherently lazy. They don't want to do the work themselves and just want the information spoon fed to them.

To the OP, I understand your befuddlement. I felt the same when I was newer to the hobby. Good information is hard to come by and there is a lot of crap information out there. It's complicated to explain but the jist is stated above. It takes time and patience. Grow the tree, feed it, keep it healthy. Wire, prune at the right time and in the right way and most trees will respond with back budding and ramification.

I advise taking pictures every year or every other year from the same angles and look back at them every year. You will be surprised at the progress you'll see in those pictures that you didn't notice because it happened slowly before your eyes.

 

[leatherback]

Lets keep bnut about trees and not about whatever is wrong with the current generation, education system or other unrelated stuff. We all have been at the starting line at a loss on how to get going. Will all the info out there, much of which is marginally correct at best it is difficult to decide what to trust, no matter how proactive one is. Some need more certainty than others before they start. That is fine. Please lets not turn this forum into reddit or fakebook, but as a great resource for novice and advanced.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Do not be unduly offended or give up on Bonsai. Many times WE of more experience grow irritated hearing such questions 100 times and get rude(self included). If once seeing how apprentices to Japanese Masters are treated might understand this is pretty mild offense. One day maybe you will be great master if persevering. Just last evening most honorable granddaughter came to Bonsai club with yours truly. After awhile she said she felt like she was in over her head. From such comments of beginners humility grows in old timers. Most humbly told her WE all started out that way and almost all will be only too happy to help her, not least of all personal self. Indeed most here also will do same for you.

 

[ShadyStump]

I have very few trees after 3 years that are anything to look at, and most can't even be distinguished as anything bonsai. There are a few reasons for this, but one is a simple rule I realized early on.
When in doubt, grow it out.

Trees can live a VERY long time. They're in no hurry, so why should we be?
They can also take allot of punishment. I'm still learning the limits on that.
The best way to learn how to get a tree from point A to point B is to watch how it does it itself. After all, it's the thing doing the growing, we're just the pit crew.

No, you don't get a bonsai by just staring at it. You'll eventually have to do something with it. More often than not, though, the tree will tell you where it's headed if you watch and listen, and be ready to jump in to lend it a hand.
Bonsai is teamwork.

 

[Kodama]

Good thread here. I'll throw in the thought of progression or growth is also of fractal patterns. See the pattern to help guide the design.

 

[ShadyStump]

Good thread here. I'll throw in the thought of progression or growth is also of fractal patterns. See the pattern to help guide the design.

This conversation is also currently ongoing, and I couldn't help but notice the fractal geometry incorporated into the cover art of De Groot's books.

What's your favorite Bonsai book?

I see a lot of tree specific books, but can you recommend a bonsai handbook or a bible? Video suggestions or websites are also welcome. :)

www.bonsainut.com

 

[KleinM]

Also for me when I started, I felt overwhelmed by all the "rules", but once I realized that there's no real right and wrong, just guidelines, I became a lot more comfortable and proud of my art (trees)

 

[ShadyStump]

Also for me when I started, I felt overwhelmed by all the "rules", but once I realized that there's no real right and wrong, just guidelines, I became a lot more comfortable and proud of my art (trees)

 

[leatherback]

I always hear things about rules. I never understand what people refer to?

 

[Joe Dupre']

My advice is to never do anything to a tree unless you are pretty certain what the outcome will be. If you are uncertain of the next step, read, ask questions, or watch videos until you can make an educated guess. There are no shortcuts. There is no one person, book or video that will give you all the information you need. Read the works of many people, look at many different videos and join a club. I've found that people new to the hobby don't REALLY understand what patience you need. You might make one or two cuts and then wait a year. It's easy to read that but a totally different thing to face it with a tree that you have to look at and water for that year.

 

[DeutschElmDisease]

Thanks to everyone for the helpful advice in this thread! I'm happy to hear that most everyone started from the same point as I'm at and that waiting and watching will make the next stages clear along the way.

I guess there isn't much specific to show between the two points I mentioned before, so that's why there's less video/discussion/etc about that span. (Can you imagine a video that just says "yep, that one is growing, so this video will be one year long...")

 

[ShadyStump]

Thanks to everyone for the helpful advice in this thread! I'm happy to hear that most everyone started from the same point as I'm at and that waiting and watching will make the next stages clear along the way.

I guess there isn't much specific to show between the two points I mentioned before, so that's why there's less video/discussion/etc about that span. (Can you imagine a video that just says "yep, that one is growing, so this video will be one year long...")

We do occasionally see updates in progression threads that are essentially that. "It's been 6 months, and... Yeah. Look at that, it's growing."
Browse through that collection of progression threads that was posted above, and you'll get a better feel for what can happen in the, "in between." You're essentially doing an initial styling, then waiting until the tree has put on enough new growth to do it again, and repeat for a few years. In that time you learn allot about how that tree grows and responds to work, and can make more informed decisions in the next cycle.

 

[BobbyLane]

'How does the bendy twig turn into branching (say, on a field maple or something like that), thick stems, and a full tree?'

the way branches grow and 'fork' is explained in this video, as I was saying though, it doesnt hurt to look at a few trees in the wild and studying the growth habits of branches on various trees. this forking occurs in all deciduous species including field maples, then some trees ramify or become twiggier and denser than others

then once you understand how branches fork, you can move onto how branches can change direction with each cut at a bud, again this is in the video above as well as on the bonsai4me site. took me a while to understand these processes. lots of repetition because i didnt get it the first time of watching or reading.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Check out this excellent video. It won't answer all of your questions, but it may answer several. At the beginning Arthur talks about the background of the tree, and how it started as one of four air-layers from the same mother plant. Then he shows how he used three of those air-layers in a group planting, while he stuck this tree in the ground. Considering he started with four clones, the difference is remarkable. Both compositions are becoming great bonsai, but the vision was different, and so the path to develop the bonsai was different.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Welcome Aboard BonsaiNut!

It looks like folks have given you quite a bit of good advice and details about developing a bonsai.

Enclosed is a graphic below I created out of one of Ryan Neil’s discussions in which he was detailing a general outline for developing bonsai. This construct has proven helpful to me. Hopefully it will for you also.

By the way, please add your approximate location and USDA zone so folks can better help you in the future. To do this click on your icon at the top of the page, then click on account details and scroll down to the appropriate areas and enter this data. Then this data will show up on your icon for each post, letting people tailor their advice to your area.


cheers
DSD sends