Drastic Pruning angle and development questions on Japanese Maples

[Japonicus]

How do we go about slanting the reduction scar, towards the front, scar face?

Does the slope angle depict how buds may be directed one angle better than another? / vs\ (or front to back)

I've spent the better part of the day reading nearly 1/2 of markyscotts Ebihara thread
very slowly just because it's so doggone good, and I'm slow, but my initial search criteria was other avenues.
Appears I'm still in the window, perhaps the best window, to drastically prune the main trunk (chop).

This one pictured is A p Katsura, but applies to all Japanese maples...

I'm betting #1 arrow is the safest 1st reduction, but is arrow #2 a best permanent site or not?
I mean I could start by keeping the forked part higher up, but I think a lower reduction would give best taper.
Though this one's grafted, I have another cutting grown Katsura that is from Brent. I will start with this one in the ground 1st.

I have not worked the roots. It was an eBay purchase I plunked in ground last mid-April 2018.
Now that it has survived I'm ready to start, but unsure on timing.

1.Should I go ahead with the trunk reduction now tending to the roots-when?

2. Trunk and roots both now

3...or closer to buds opening work the roots to plant on a board and forget the reduction this year?
Buds are beginning to increase in size now, but slightly.

I have so many questions on maples my search criteria fails to answer, then I get off on tangents reading
very important material that has nothing to do with my initial search. Many factors play in, so not a one size fits all.
For instance I have one in ground over 10 years I will be ringing the root zone in May I think.
That is quite a bit different from a recent young acquisition as far as beginning with the roots.

 

[Japonicus]

I must have worded my question about the angle wrong.

Is there an advantageous angle to chop the trunk at considering the front of the tree
and the direction of the projected trunk growth?

 

[Rodrigo]

Considering we have little control of where the new buds would come out when you chop, we usually do a flat cut across the top as the first step. Once the new buds come out and you select your new leader, THEN you can come back and make the slant cut at the appropriate place. Otherwise you may cut it slanted but not get buds right where you need them. Hope that helps

 

[Smoke]

Considering we have little control of where the new buds would come out when you chop, we usually do a flat cut across the top as the first step. Once the new buds come out and you select your new leader, THEN you can come back and make the slant cut at the appropriate place. Otherwise you may cut it slanted but not get buds right where you need them. Hope that helps

Unless you are chopping to a good viable shoot, then you can make the angle cut to show in the back of the front view.

 

[Japonicus]

Considering we have little control of where the new buds would come out when you chop, we usually do a flat cut across the top as the first step. Once the new buds come out and you select your new leader, THEN you can come back and make the slant cut at the appropriate place. Otherwise you may cut it slanted but not get buds right where you need them. Hope that helps

That's what I was thinking but I am doing as Smoke eluded to, a viable shoot.
The 1st arrow was a safe point to allow for die back + if that point remained aesthetic and lived, then a keeper.
Being my 1st maple chop to begin training, I wasn't sure if the angle would be beneficial for a bud that DID pop
in a desirable location or close enough. Thanks for the reply.

Unless you are chopping to a good viable shoot, then you can make the angle cut to show in the back of the front view.

This is what I did Smoke. I put the scar to the back, oh, now I look at the nebari
Ok, beginners luck.

Now I'm off to dig it and explore the roots.
Unfortunately I had made it scar face 1st, then reversed to the back side.
This brought the cut right down to the viable shoot/branch which I'm expecting die back to claim now.
If not, so be it good luck.

 

[Shibui]

You seem to be overthinking at this stage. There will still be many more cuts and chops for this tree so what you do now will hardly matter in future. Plenty of opportunity to recut after the tree sprouts and I would expect new shoots to grow from all those nodes on the trunk giving many more options for future apex and branches.
As you have just discovered, best to make decisions based on the whole tree rather than just looking at one section.
Nebari is a big part of maple bonsai so getting the roots right is the first step IMHO. Worry about trunk and branches after the roots.
I would dig and root prune very hard to get better root ramification at this stage and now should be an ideal time to do that.

 

[Smoke]

That's what I was thinking but I am doing as Smoke eluded to, a viable shoot.
The 1st arrow was a safe point to allow for die back + if that point remained aesthetic and lived, then a keeper.
Being my 1st maple chop to begin training, I wasn't sure if the angle would be beneficial for a bud that DID pop
in a desirable location or close enough. Thanks for the reply.

This is what I did Smoke. I put the scar to the back, oh, now I look at the nebari
Ok, beginners luck.
View attachment 227635View attachment 227636View attachment 227637
Now I'm off to dig it and explore the roots.
Unfortunately I had made it scar face 1st, then reversed to the back side.
This brought the cut right down to the viable shoot/branch which I'm expecting die back to claim now.
If not, so be it good luck.

Make em eat Crow. Do it your way. Never look back. So many here talk the talk but never show anything that they are doing. It is sooo easy to talk.

 

[Smoke]

....and, as far as roots go, I almost start every new maple with the intentions of ground layering the tree off at some point and starting that part over. Very few maples, if ever, have a base that looks in proportion with the bonsai. I said the bonsai not container plant. If you purchase a plant that has been worked on and has a good base, its because someone started it over, it had a very rare and good base to start with or its been grafted on to. All that can be done while working the top of the tree.

 

[Smoke]

Sometimes you have to get radical with your ground layer to get what you need.



before


after

 

[Japonicus]

You seem to be overthinking at this stage. There will still be many more cuts and chops for this tree so what you do now will hardly matter in future. Plenty of opportunity to recut after the tree sprouts and I would expect new shoots to grow from all those nodes on the trunk giving many more options for future apex and branches.
As you have just discovered, best to make decisions based on the whole tree rather than just looking at one section.
Nebari is a big part of maple bonsai so getting the roots right is the first step IMHO. Worry about trunk and branches after the roots.
I would dig and root prune very hard to get better root ramification at this stage and now should be an ideal time to do that.

Yes I overthink. And yes I failed to look at the nebari 1st, but that branch thrown off at the curve was the target
whether it was to the right or left would be depicted by the nebari, I failed to consider that when I made the cut.
So, onwards and downwards...

Make em eat Crow. Do it your way. Never look back. So many hear talk the talk but never show anything that they are doing. It is sooo easy to talk.

OMG I bought a nursery tree with a magnificent root issue that from what I'm reading requires root grafting or ROR.
Help!!!

In the last 2 pictures I'm considering severing the lower root system here since ROR would be my very last resort
then attempt my 1st grafting, roots of all things.
This is ugly but it is what it is, and I will work with what I have. Again, it is grafted, albeit quite well, another project
as if the species itself was not enough work. Cutting teeth I suppose. Thoughts?

 

[Japonicus]

Sometimes you have to get radical with your ground layer to get what you need.

View attachment 227639View attachment 227640

before
View attachment 227649

after
View attachment 227650

WoW! Very rad!

 

[Japonicus]

....and, as far as roots go, I almost start every new maple with the intentions of ground layering the tree off at some point and starting that part over. Very few maples, if ever, have a base that looks in proportion with the bonsai...

I think this is the best case scenario, though it would be my 1st layer as well
The grafting of roots will never catch up with the existing opposite side in proportion.
Plant back in ground and wait till April? Then perform the same technique for branch air layering?

 

[Shibui]

This is quite common for Japanese maples that have not had good root work.
ROR is out of the question IMHO. The existing roots are far to thick and stiff to conform to most roots properly.
Best option is to regrow the roots and that is very achievable in JM.
First option is layers - similar to Smoke's post above.
Second is just cut roots back hard. No need to graft. New roots will grow from nearly all cut root surfaces so if you cut that vertical root right close to the 2 laterals you should get many new roots growing from the edges of the cut. Next spring some can be trained out horizontally if they have not already grown that direction. Just as an example here's the sort of root cutback I do with trident maples.


If you don't feel quite that brave you could opt for just removing the vertical root then screw to a board technique where all new roots are forced to grow horizontal over the board.

 

[Japonicus]

@Shibui Rad as well, err brave. I think Tridents a bit more acceptable to this but what are your thoughts on this
tourniquet ground layering. Seems rather symmetrical and balanced. The roots opposite the side I would remove
as you suggest if I'm not brave enough to be so radical, have such a head start on any new roots to come.
Planting on a board was my end goal today, but it took me 2 hours to find my cut paste.

 

[Japonicus]

Hopefully this takes and has a much better outcome than before your alls replies here.
If so, many thanks. If not my apologies for my blunders.


Snugged some 4mm wire where I perceived the said graft to be. It's that good of a graft if it IS grafted.
Removed the lower root system and left hopefully enough roots to get some vigour to the foliage.


I'm leaving all the rest of the foliage above to feed the roots and roots to come at the ground layer with no cut backs planned through Summer. Fair plan?
EDIT:
Wasn't sure how deep to plant the "girdle" but maybe is 1" deep now in reused discarded bonsai soil amendment with original soil.
Was I supposed to seal the cut below ground or leave it unsealed?

 

[moke]

Sometimes you have to get radical with your ground layer to get what you need.

View attachment 227639View attachment 227640

before
View attachment 227649

after
View attachment 227650

Those pictures are worth a 1000 words or roots. Thanks @Smoke you just threw me an Ah Ha Hell Yes!!! Moment for a couple of maples I’ve been working on. What you did there in the pics should work for my dilemma. I’ll document it when I get to that point.
Thanks,

 

[BackyardBonsai]

Hopefully this takes and has a much better outcome than before your alls replies here.
If so, many thanks. If not my apologies for my blunders.
View attachment 227679
View attachment 227680
Snugged some 4mm wire where I perceived the said graft to be. It's that good of a graft if it IS grafted.
Removed the lower root system and left hopefully enough roots to get some vigour to the foliage.

View attachment 227681
I'm leaving all the rest of the foliage above to feed the roots and roots to come at the ground layer with no cut backs planned through Summer. Fair plan?
EDIT:
Wasn't sure how deep to plant the "girdle" but maybe is 1" deep now in reused discarded bonsai soil amendment with original soil.
Was I supposed to seal the cut below ground or leave it unsealed?

Why cut the roots if you going to do ground layer? You need all that roots to get the tree grow well to force the roots at the layer.

 

[Japonicus]

Why cut the roots if you going to do ground layer? You need all that roots to get the tree grow well to force the roots at the layer.

You're correct. I liked your video! It gave me confidence and yours was so root-full in just 8 months.
Seeing @Smoke and @Shibui 's drastic applications I suppose I should have done less to the roots, but
went ahead with the setback. Shoot, I probably just did a 2 season set back, hopefully not killing it.

Might I ask if you sealed your severance point when you potted it up on your tile?

 

[Shibui]

I think Tridents a bit more acceptable to this but what are your thoughts on this
tourniquet ground layering.

Correct that tridents are a little more tolerant than JM but not a lot more. Tourniquet ground layering should work well but I agree with the others - leaving all the roots would speed up development. I understand that you are experimenting and gaining courage by trying new things.
I have never bothered to seal below ground cuts. I see sealers as protecting wounds from drying rather than protecting from pest and disease so wounds below ground should not need protecting from dry.
1"deep is probably good. Not so critical with JM because they do not produce new surface roots as much as tridents do.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

You will find that wiring a trunk and sticking it in the ground isn’t going to be very useful. Several reasons:
1. Wiring slows down growth, so the intended branch will lag behind branches without wire, defeating the purpose.
2. Ground-growing is intended to speed trunk development, so its faster for growing new trunk sections, chopping and healing the resulting scars. This is how you get taper and movement.
3. If you’re not paying very close attention, those wires are going to scar the trunk, which is nearly a forever scar.
4. The trunk girdling is a gamble. You don’t really know what’s going to happen. It’s best to layer in a very controlled, deliberate environment. Cut the cambium, make the layer and keep it at eye-level for a year. When you get good roots, next year you can plant it in the ground with a radial root system, and then let it run.
5. When you do plant a trunk in the ground, resist the temptation to plant the trunks stickinng straight up out of the ground. Plant them at a severe angle. You started to do this here, but the second section appears perpendicular to the ground. The most interesting Bonsai have movement starting right at the base. So many ground-grown trees shoot straight up, then start moving a few inches above the soil. I’m still kicking myself for making this mistake!