Does it exist? Non grafted apple cultivars?

[19Mateo83]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know of a source for cutting grown or air layered apple cultivars? I know in the fruit tree industry it does not exist, I’m hoping in the hobbyist world it does. Anyone have a direction to point me in?

 

[Ininaatigoons]

Crabs... Sure. evergreengardenworks.com Table Cultivars? I bet most of them have plant patents and orchards like to have rootstock for the reliability. 2 options I can think of. Buy scion wood and try to root hardwood cuttings. Or if it's just the giant fruit your after plant the seeds from one you ate. It won't produce the same apple, but probably the size your after.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Yep! For his flowering apples try his 'Hally Jolivette'

For crabs Malus sieboldii x. Ours bloomed the very first year and punched out a prolifera of golden yellow crabapples

…. and for domestic apples check out this link.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Mike Westervelt]

Yep, what Ininaatigoons said, I have a Malus Radiant crab from Brent at Evergreen Garden Works that was cutting grown

 

[19Mateo83]

I’m hoping to find a true to cultivar apple that some hobbyist or nursery man was crazy enough to propagate from cuttings or airlayer. @Deep Sea Diver apples grown from seed have as much genetic variation as say Japanese maples grown from seed and won’t be true to the parent cultivar. I may have to buy an apple tree and airlayer it myself. It’s starting to look like a cultivar on its own roots is a rare thing. Nice link though, thank you for sharing.

 

[Javaman4373]

I have a Calville Blanc d'Hiver that we especially like the fruit it produces. It is fairly old and has some center rot in the trunk. So we bought another one and it has grown and produced fruit, only the apples are not really the same. Making another effort to reproduce that variety, I air layered a couple of branches from our favorite Calville Blanc and they are doing well. They are not big enough yet to produce fruit, but we will see if these clones reproduce the original or not. I also air layered a Yellow Gold Delicious branch and it is growing well in the ground.

 

[Ininaatigoons]

Root stock affects gene expression in the scion to the extent that it is not the same tree if switched with any other alternative. The most visible of course would be size. Dwarf, semi-dwarf, and standard, but this is just what is obvious as it is visible. Root stock may in fact alter every aspect of the scion. Disease resistance, temperature tolerances, photosensitivity, (I would argue) even the fruit itself. So should trees be a named cultivar if the root stock is different or if it is a cutting? All this said... Could there be a non grafted Cultivar?

 

[19Mateo83]

Could there be a non grafted Cultivar?

I guess this is ultimately what I’m looking for.

 

[Kanorin]

I’m hoping to find a true to cultivar apple that some hobbyist or nursery man was crazy enough to propagate from cuttings or airlayer. @Deep Sea Diver apples grown from seed have as much genetic variation as say Japanese maples grown from seed and won’t be true to the parent cultivar. I may have to buy an apple tree and airlayer it myself. It’s starting to look like a cultivar on its own roots is a rare thing. Nice link though, thank you for sharing.

Any apple orchards near you? You could see if they'd let you take a few layers or cuttings. I have some seedlings that I've been growing from store-bought Granny Smith apples. Who knows what the other half of their genetics are though.

 

[Ininaatigoons]

Seeds no matter what plant or animal wants to use the stronger dominant genes with a slim possibility of the recessive traits being expressed. With that in mind you can formulate some expectations. Most germinated seeds will be standard height, red, and smaller than the commercially viable cultivar. Being Granny Smith... It is likely some apples will be green, but I bet most would be red.

 

[Kanorin]

Seeds no matter what plant or animal wants to use the stronger dominant genes with a slim possibility of the recessive traits being expressed. With that in mind you can formulate some expectations. Most germinated seeds will be standard height, red, and smaller than the commercially viable cultivar. Being Granny Smith... It is likely some apples will be green, but I bet most would be red.

I was curious about what is known regarding apple pigmentation genetics and hot damn the rabbit hole is deep. I'm not an expert in plant pigmentation, but I am an expert in mammalian genetics. It appears that there are over 20 genes interacting that regulate the levels and the coloration of just the anthocyanins in apples. (Figure from Wang et al., 2020: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8594686/). Furthermore there are known epigenetic marks that influence the coloration of apples as well. Probably another few dozen genes that regulate the other pigments.

In summary, when you hybridize different types of apples, you very well could get the whole spectrum of apple coloration from all red, 10% red 90% green, 20% red 70% green, 10% yellow, etc, etc.). It's not going to be a simple punnett square because apple coloration has so many different genes contributing.

 

[Ininaatigoons]

I love it! I am so lost and now remember why I didn't become a plant geneticist, but this really is great and wonderful. Good discussion.

 

[19Mateo83]

This is fascinating!

 

[yenling83]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know of a source for cutting grown or air layered apple cultivars? I know in the fruit tree industry it does not exist, I’m hoping in the hobbyist world it does. Anyone have a direction to point me in?

I love the idea, wish there was-i'd buy a few. I actually planted a few apple trees at the house, partially for the apples and partially because I wanted to take airlayers

 

[JackHammer]

So your goal is to get a pure cultivar, without a graft. Are there specific characteristics that you are looking for? I can see what you are trying to do, but I am not sure why you are trying to do it.