Hello everybody, I’m looking to make an online purchase of a Deshojo to create a Bonsai, and I’ll be ordering online. So I won’t be able to see the actual treat you until it arrives. which pot size do you guys recommend?
Deshojo 1 vs 3 gallon
- Thread starter johnl445
- Start date
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
If it's smaller, it'll be easier to layer if they are grafted. If you're buying them unseen and aren't sure whether they're grafted or not, I suggest doing a smaller size.
Ok, I understand. I’m not planning on layering, to be honest, I’d love to get a big 1+” inch caliper, snd trunk chop it, it feels like going that route with Save a little bit of time but maybe you guys could tell me otherwise.
RoadManDenDron
Chumono
I was not planning to layer when I first bought maples either but most cultivars available from landscape nurseries are grafted,
Many grafts for garden trees either start ugly, because a garden tree isn't judged on the same aesthetic standards as bonsai, or develop ugly due to poorly matched rootstock and cultivar growing at different rates, again not a big deal in the garden but not useful for bonsai.
Add to this that you are not choosing the tree yourself and your odds of getting a good tree for bonsai drop dramatically.
To get round this we layer off the cultivar (above the graft) and get the cultivar running on its own roots.
I actually planted my maples and I'm developing branches into bonsai which I will later layer off.
Another solution is to purchase your deshojo from a specialist bonsai nursery, it will cost more but will save time and the tree will be on its own roots, and will probably have had some root work and trunk development.
Many grafts for garden trees either start ugly, because a garden tree isn't judged on the same aesthetic standards as bonsai, or develop ugly due to poorly matched rootstock and cultivar growing at different rates, again not a big deal in the garden but not useful for bonsai.
Add to this that you are not choosing the tree yourself and your odds of getting a good tree for bonsai drop dramatically.
To get round this we layer off the cultivar (above the graft) and get the cultivar running on its own roots.
I actually planted my maples and I'm developing branches into bonsai which I will later layer off.
Another solution is to purchase your deshojo from a specialist bonsai nursery, it will cost more but will save time and the tree will be on its own roots, and will probably have had some root work and trunk development.
Ok @RoadManDenDron that is very helpful.
Now, say i’m at a Nursery and I find a 10 gallon maple with a clean graft , decent nebari, and nice movement in the trunk. Let’s say I chop that trunk at the desired height of 12 inches from that point moving forward, how many seasons would it take to get some nice branching to begin training for a Bonsai.
Now, say i’m at a Nursery and I find a 10 gallon maple with a clean graft , decent nebari, and nice movement in the trunk. Let’s say I chop that trunk at the desired height of 12 inches from that point moving forward, how many seasons would it take to get some nice branching to begin training for a Bonsai.
RoadManDenDron
Chumono
there are a number of factors at play in any 'how long' question, perhaps most importantly is where abouts in the world you are.
If you can add an approximate location to your profile it will save you saying it all the time and will help people give appropriate advice based on seasons and climate etc.
Generally speaking, your nursery tree trunk would be about the same thickness most of the way up and your first chop would be low, then a leader would be grown for the next section of trunk until it is thick enough but slightly thinner than the first section and chopped again and at least one more trunk section maybe more, this creates a tapered trunk which is important to give the bonsai perspective.
Throughout this time the tree is pretty much allowed to grow unrestricted as this adds thickness to the trunk the fastest, and how long it takes depends on how thick your trunk is and how much taper you choose to put in.
You could be lucky and often can find maples/trees that have split into branches which have grown thick in the nursery and may be able to chop to one of these as the second trunk section maybe more. Each section adds movement to the trunk which again helps to make the bonsai interesting
Finally branches are developed, you could have reasonable branches in 2/3 years but could spend many years taking these branches further and into incredible branches
I'm not trying to put you off, I just would feel like I was setting you up to fail if I didn't lay out the reality of building a trunk more than 'chop at 12 inches'
I would encourage you to learn about air layering as in my experience it is the fastest way to a decent nebari and will be another tool in your belt. It is even possible to air layer a branch or sometimes the top of a trunk that is more or less ready to refine into a bonsai.
As above specific bonsai nurseries will sell deshojo with some taper that you could start developing branches on straight away. again depending where you are, people here can recommend places or if your in the right region there may be someone with deshojo they are selling, which again would be much closer to ready than a nursery tree.
There are definitely faster trees to develop than maples, you could take a nursery juniper and wire it into a convincing bonsai in one session nevermind a season.
Welcome to the hobby, it can seem like a rabbit hole at first but we are lucky there is so much information available, particularly on this site, but I would also recommend joining your local bonsai club, there is no better advice than local advice and again, you may be able to find someone selling a deshojo.
If you decide to pursue the deshojo, search this site for deshojo and maple threads in general and examine the photos and processes involved, you will get inspiration and can learn from people's successes and failures.
If you can add an approximate location to your profile it will save you saying it all the time and will help people give appropriate advice based on seasons and climate etc.
Generally speaking, your nursery tree trunk would be about the same thickness most of the way up and your first chop would be low, then a leader would be grown for the next section of trunk until it is thick enough but slightly thinner than the first section and chopped again and at least one more trunk section maybe more, this creates a tapered trunk which is important to give the bonsai perspective.
Throughout this time the tree is pretty much allowed to grow unrestricted as this adds thickness to the trunk the fastest, and how long it takes depends on how thick your trunk is and how much taper you choose to put in.
You could be lucky and often can find maples/trees that have split into branches which have grown thick in the nursery and may be able to chop to one of these as the second trunk section maybe more. Each section adds movement to the trunk which again helps to make the bonsai interesting
Finally branches are developed, you could have reasonable branches in 2/3 years but could spend many years taking these branches further and into incredible branches
I'm not trying to put you off, I just would feel like I was setting you up to fail if I didn't lay out the reality of building a trunk more than 'chop at 12 inches'
I would encourage you to learn about air layering as in my experience it is the fastest way to a decent nebari and will be another tool in your belt. It is even possible to air layer a branch or sometimes the top of a trunk that is more or less ready to refine into a bonsai.
As above specific bonsai nurseries will sell deshojo with some taper that you could start developing branches on straight away. again depending where you are, people here can recommend places or if your in the right region there may be someone with deshojo they are selling, which again would be much closer to ready than a nursery tree.
There are definitely faster trees to develop than maples, you could take a nursery juniper and wire it into a convincing bonsai in one session nevermind a season.
Welcome to the hobby, it can seem like a rabbit hole at first but we are lucky there is so much information available, particularly on this site, but I would also recommend joining your local bonsai club, there is no better advice than local advice and again, you may be able to find someone selling a deshojo.
If you decide to pursue the deshojo, search this site for deshojo and maple threads in general and examine the photos and processes involved, you will get inspiration and can learn from people's successes and failures.
jevanlewis
Mame
Because you want to save time, this option may be a non-starter for you, but you can get affordable Japanese Maple rooted cuttings from Evergreen Gardenworks:
https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/availabl.htm
The main benefit is that they are already on their own roots. Of course, the downside is that the trunks are tiny compared to most nursery JMs. However, ultimately, you might save time with the cutting because you don't have to deal with a potentially ugly graft. A pro of nursery stock is that it is cheaper, and you could get a tree large enough that you could air layer several branches off of. Much more economical, but takes time.
I'm very pleased with my purchase of four JMs from Evergreen Gardenworks (Shin chishio, Shin deshoujo, Yuri hime, Standard Japanese Maple). The Shin Deshoujo is the one in the front right, since that's the one your are interested it. First photo is from 7/1023 and second and third photos are from 10/10/23. All of these put on a lot of growth after I received them.
https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/availabl.htm
The main benefit is that they are already on their own roots. Of course, the downside is that the trunks are tiny compared to most nursery JMs. However, ultimately, you might save time with the cutting because you don't have to deal with a potentially ugly graft. A pro of nursery stock is that it is cheaper, and you could get a tree large enough that you could air layer several branches off of. Much more economical, but takes time.
I'm very pleased with my purchase of four JMs from Evergreen Gardenworks (Shin chishio, Shin deshoujo, Yuri hime, Standard Japanese Maple). The Shin Deshoujo is the one in the front right, since that's the one your are interested it. First photo is from 7/1023 and second and third photos are from 10/10/23. All of these put on a lot of growth after I received them.
@RoadManDenDron and @jevanlewis. As a newcomer, I appreciate the kind nature and informative responses. I’ve shaped one hinoki cypress bonsai, and it was such a rewarding experience. Now the more I research bonsai, it feels as though Japanese maples are of the top tier in the world of bonsai. Understandably so because it is such a beautiful tree. And it makes sense that they would be no shortcuts in order to achieve a work of art. It won’t be overnight, but I will slowly except the fact to have a beautiful Deshojo bonsai, this could be 5 to 7 years in the making.
hardtimes
Mame
I have quite a few different cultivars but in the end, the regular j maple (momiji) ending up looking the best and being the hardiest
Thanks @hardtimes , if possible, upload a picture, I’d love to see it.
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Beautiful is in the eye of the beholder but I would say that a Japanese maple bonsai would probably take closer to 10 years and only then if no mistakes or problems along the way.
Everyone seems to aspire to a Japanese maple bonsai but In my experience JM are more difficult to work with - less hardy, more prone to local thickening, slower to grow and recover after large pruning, more diseases and pests, longer internodes make it harder to get a nice, compact tree.
I would always recommend Trident maple to beginners over JM. Quicker to grow, hardier and if you have a problem cut it off and start again.
There's a reason there are so few great Japanese maple bonsai and that the few that are great are revered so highly.
I completely concur! After more than 30 years of bonsai, JM are still the most frustrating species for me and the cultivars are even worse!!
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
An interesting take... I happen to love Japanese maples. I've also a Trident clump.
My old rule of thumb was one species per bench. My cultivar list is large over that stance. Over the years... I've caved on nicer material. I've now...four Japanese maples. Because...well, I do love them. They all are different in their own right. I don't see the years in to develop a tree...I see the enjoyment in the journey.
One Japanese maple...more of a project than the others. But I intend to enjoy the journey...it came...profoundly scarred on the trunk and base. I intend to enjoy the characteristic of it...and not mind if it isn't for everyone.
Really? I've this strange rule one species on my bench so they each stand out as significantly their own no two representing. So I've a huge species list. But I've broken that rule of thumb ..I've 4 J.M. I've a Trident clump...I don't hate it. I think I appreciate both for what they bring to the table.
Elm also broke that rule of thumb ..and I've two flowering quince. Along with Asian Jasmine. The remainder of my collection I have no duplicate species.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Oh geesh...Is there echo in here!?! 
I thought my earlier post got lost... apparently I never submitted it...
I thought my earlier post got lost... apparently I never submitted it...
hardtimes
Mame
Momiji, murasaka kiyohime, trident, mikawa yatsuba, and sango kaku.
They’re all new to me this year. I’ll most likely repot them all into 100% akadama in the coming spring. I’ve heard users from my area having success preventing scorching with that medium. If I can afford it that is lol. Although one thing to note is that you most likely won’t experience leaf scorching in your zone, I’m just saying that my green maple is doing the best by far which is why I said that it’s the hardiest and best looking (out of the maples that I have).
Attachments
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
I also like Japanese maples. I don't have any self imposed rules on numbers so I have a number of JM bonsai here.
Shohin-
Larger
That does not make them easier to develop or maintain. Some of the problems I alluded to earlier do not become obvious for 5-10 years then you suddenly realize you have a problem and need to figure out why and how to reverse it to recover a showable tree. Other issues are much quicker to develop.
You may have exceptional skills that make JM easier to manage. After more than 40 years I'm quite certain that JM is much harder to develop and to maintain than trident maple. After early trimming related problems appeared in my JM I spent years learning how to trim and prune more effectively on tridents (because they are so much more forgiving) then came back to JM with the improved skill levels and knowledge to develop the trees shown - and others.
There's a reason why shows have far more quality tridents on the benches than JM.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
I always assumed the reason for more Trident seen. Is as you state. You can develop them quicker.
I will say...my long time go-to guy for material. Isn't selling much deciduous trees any longer. People don't want to put the time in. His words... so most want conifer. Disheartening...but it's what he's seeing in the USA.
I actually prefer JM to Trident. But that is now,my own personal preference. But...honestly. my first JM was added less than a year in. So it's a species that has walked with me most my journey. So maybe most comfortable with.
Beautiful looking tress. You have a lot of fun ahead of you
