Cutting off branches and start over

[ThomasToft]

Hello. Im new here.
I have three wonderful chinese elms i bought this year. Although they are relatively pretty i thought about cutting off most of the tertiary and secodary branches and start the ramifiction all over (im all about winter silhouette), as most of it is just a thick main branch and then small branches attached to it. I feel it lacks taper in ramification if that makes sense

They are all in standard organic mix.
If i cut them severely back in the fall, will the trees be to weak to repot next spring? I will i be better off repotting first (to get it in proper soil) and then make the cuts in fall 2024 instead?

They have been heavily organic fertillized this growing season and are very vigorous. I have heard someone state that one should only do 1 major work pr season. How would you guys do it.

Also is it possible to graft a branch directly from an existing shoot (so the tree grafts itself) on the large elm tree at the right bottom. I feel like the tree could use it

Extra info: i live in Denmark. I believe the climate is more or less the same as nothern part of UK

Thanks in advance

 

[ThomasToft]

Bump

 

[Cajunrider]

I don't know about others, but I am reluctant in answering to you because your pictures don't tell me much. It is hard to say whether or not you should do it, at least for the two trees in the right of your picture. Your trees look healthy, if you want to trim off secondary and tertiary branches and start over, my guess is you can go ahead.
I have a ficus that is similar to your large tree in the left of the picture. I am contemplating major structural changes to mine.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Maybe wait until the leaves fall off in autumn so people can get a better look at the branch structure?

 

[Tums]

For grafting using existing branches, try looking up approach or thread grafting.

But is there a reason you want to prune in fall? Living in a cold climate, I would just wait until the repotting time in late winter/early spring and do both repot/prune at once because the tree won't really be healing over winter.

I don't think you need to stagger the operations for a vigorous Chinese elm but if you want to, I would cut back in summer after the first flush rather than wait until fall.

 

[BrianBay9]

Yes, the "one major operation per season" is very species dependent. Healthy chinese elms should handle a repot and hard prune at the same time in spring. Can't tell much about branching from your pics, but cutting back should give you lots of new buds to choose from. If you want a thread graft, be sure to save one or two long branches to use.

 

[pandacular]

Yes, the "one major operation per season" is very species dependent. Healthy chinese elms should handle a repot and hard prune at the same time in spring. Can't tell much about branching from your pics, but cutting back should give you lots of new buds to choose from. If you want a thread graft, be sure to save one or two long branches to use.

I wonder to what extent a hard prune of a deciduous species coming out of dormancy is really all that much of a major operation anyway. I mean, it has to make all new leaves anyway, right?

I'm a beginner though, so asking for clarification.

 

[Gabler]

I wonder to what extent a hard prune of a deciduous species coming out of dormancy is really all that much of a major operation anyway. I mean, it has to make all new leaves anyway, right?

I'm a beginner though, so asking for clarification.

It's been my experience that some species hardly notice, while others struggle to recover. In particular, I've noticed that American beech trees resent removal of their buds. They tend to push their energy into long-dormant latent buds, rather than backbudding from random points on the trunk. They will push growth from the chop site at the exposed cambium like an elm, but the growth is weak compared to that from lower latent buds, and so the chop site branches tend to shrivel up and die in favor of the stronger, lower bud-based branches.

 

[pandacular]

Ah, I hadn't thought of the locations of buds. I could do well to better understand the transfer of energy to buds when exiting dormancy.

 

[Matte91]

Hej Thomas

Where in Denmark do you live? Im also from Denmark.
I can recommend to meet up with other bonsai guys or attend a meeting in a club nearby.
We also have some really great bonsai Facebook groups in Denmark.

 

[Tieball]

Well. I don’t have a Chinese Elm. However. This is how I would answer your questions though. If you have a bonsai friend where you live I’d ask detailed questions of that person and rely on local advice.

My view though. If your plan is to cut back a lot. Drastic pruning. I would not root prune this 2023 year. I would not do any branch pruning until close to spring 2024 before bud swelling. I have always believed that trees maintain branch health over winter better when not fall pruned. Winters for me are harsh and a pruning introduces a path for moisture thawing and freezing in a branch and results in further dieback. I let the tree's full branch protection maintain itself over winter. I would not root prune until probably spring of 2025 when I know from the full 2024 season that the tree has returned to health after drastic branch pruning. I’d give the tree all the energy it has to recuperate.

I don’t know about Chinese Elm response to drastic pruning. I think that in your case, it would be better to do some branch elimination but keep several good structural branches with visible buds. I think that is your plan already. Chinese Elm, to my knowledge, does not respond with a wild abundance of new growth like my American Elm trees.

 

[BrianBay9]

I don’t know about Chinese Elm response to drastic pruning. ..... Chinese Elm, to my knowledge, does not respond with a wild abundance of new growth like my American Elm trees.

Nothing wrong with being conservative, but these two statements don't track. A healthy Chinese elm will respond with a wild abundance of new growth, perhaps more than your American elms. I have many of both.

 

[Tieball]

Nothing wrong with being conservative, but these two statements don't track. A healthy Chinese elm will respond with a wild abundance of new growth, perhaps more than your American elms. I have many of both.

That’s because I don’t have Chinese Elms so I don’t really know how the trees respond. It’s good to hear that the Chinese Elms respond well to drastic cutting and pruning. I just have not seen wild quick growth on Chinese Elms. I’ve seen growth but not fast repetitive growth over the course of a few weeks. I am familiar with American Elm trees which will grow wildly, and grow again even after three drastic pruning sessions back to back.

Here are some photo examples of one of my American Elms and the growth pattern. I neglected to photograph the bare trunk after I cut every branch off which was on July 1. The first photo is about 2 weeks after the bare trunk. The second photo pruned back and eliminated branches. The third photo in after another 2 weeks and at the end of July. All of this growth is just the month of July. I still have pruning to do again in August.

 

[BrianBay9]

Great American elms!

 

[Adamski77]

What I would do is to repot it next spring... let it go till early summer... if the response is great (and it should be) use early summer time to prune off what you don't want/need. I bought some chinese elms last November (admittedly Shanghai weather is not equal to Denmark)... and I had to repot them... below the pictures from November (when I had no hope) and June this year. Then in July I trimmed it really hard... and today the tree is back again how it looked 8 weeks ago with feet or more of new growth.

 

[Tieball]

What I would do is to repot it next spring... let it go till early summer... if the response is great (and it should be) use early summer time to prune off what you don't want/need. I bought some chinese elms last November (admittedly Shanghai weather is not equal to Denmark)... and I had to repot them... below the pictures from November (when I had no hope) and June this year. Then in July I trimmed it really hard... and today the tree is back again how it looked 8 weeks ago with feet or more of new growth.

Excellent growth. A fresh lush green.

 

[Shibui]

I must have missed this post on Tuesday. Apologies.

As stated above Chinese elm is very resilient. No problem repotting and chopping in one operation if required but chop in autumn and repot in spring will also be OK if that's how you want to do it.
Grafting is as easy as any other species. I have used approach grafts to place new branches using shoots from the same tree.

Chopping all branches and rebuilding ramification from scratch is often used with commercial grown stock. To make money they grow the trees as fast as possible without regard to taper or ramification so branching often ends up thick and without taper. If you feel the need and have the time, rebuilding slowly to get better branches is recommended for many fast grown trees.

 

[Deleted member 47471]

Large black grow containers, NPK 20-0-0 for additional boost and elongation, lots of sunlight and water should accomplish what you’ve described as your goal. The widening, growing and

That’s because I don’t have Chinese Elms so I don’t really know how the trees respond. It’s good to hear that the Chinese Elms respond well to drastic cutting and pruning. I just have not seen wild quick growth on Chinese Elms. I’ve seen growth but not fast repetitive growth over the course of a few weeks. I am familiar with American Elm trees which will grow wildly, and grow again even after three drastic pruning sessions back to back.

Here are some photo examples of one of my American Elms and the growth pattern. I neglected to photograph the bare trunk after I cut every branch off which was on July 1. The first photo is about 2 weeks after the bare trunk. The second photo pruned back and eliminated branches. The third photo in after another 2 weeks and at the end of July. All of this growth is just the month of July. I still have pruning to do again in August.View attachment 502320
View attachment 502321


View attachment 502322

Superb tree(s). I even love the box. Did you make it? It’s very nice.

 

[Tieball]

I even love the box. Did you make it? It’s very nice.

Assuming you were addressing me. Yes….to the handmade boxes. I build the boxes and scale back the size every few years so the trees becomes bonsai pot ready over time. I always have a stack of boxes waiting for trees. Funny though, all my trees are in boxes, none are in bonsai pots. I guess I just like the boxes….and the box root protection and box survival over the long winters.

 

[Adamski77]

Great idea with boxes… wish I would have so much patience. But have one juniper bought while ago that will need to go to pot… might leverage your idea with box first. The pot I bought it in is Chinese clay “nursery” pot… whole thing must be 80 pounds+

Assuming you were addressing me. Yes….to the handmade boxes. I build the boxes and scale back the size every few years so the trees becomes bonsai pot ready over time. I always have a stack of boxes waiting for trees. Funny though, all my trees are in boxes, none are in bonsai pots. I guess I just like the boxes….and the box root protection and box survival over the long