Creating bonsai from nursery stock (acer palmatum atropurpureum)

[Haidr]

Hi fellow bonsai people. I was looking for a acer palmatum atropurpureum bonsai here in Melbourne, Australia but couldn’t find any. I managed to get a young non grafted plant from a nursery stock that had some potential. After some trimming, bending the branches using guys method and removing burned leaves the results are as follows in the picture. Can someone please tell me if I should leave the tree in the same pot if I don’t want it to grow any taller? My goal is to keep this height just thicker the trunk and branches over the years. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Happy new year to all in advance.

 

[SeanS]

Hi fellow bonsai people. I was looking for a acer palmatum atropurpureum bonsai here in Melbourne, Australia but couldn’t find any. I managed to get a young non grafted plant from a nursery stock that had some potential. After some trimming, bending the branches using guys method and removing burned leaves the results are as follows in the picture. Can someone please tell me if I should leave the tree in the same pot if I don’t want it to grow any taller? My goal is to keep this height just thicker the trunk and branches over the years. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Happy new year to all in advance.

Keep this height in the eventual final design or keep it this height all the time even when trying to thicken the trunk and branches?

 

[Haidr]

Keep this height in the eventual final design or keep it this height all the time even when trying to thicken the trunk and branches?

Thanks for your response. Keeping this height all the time. It’s already straight enough getting any taller is not going to look good

 

[BrianBay9]

Your fastest route to a thicker trunk is to let the top grow freely. Don't worry about the height while you're doing this. You'll cut back to an appropriate height once you get the trunk thickness you want. Generally you build a bonsai from the bottom up. Roots and trunk first, then worry about the top.

 

[Haidr]

Your fastest route to a thicker trunk is to let the top grow freely. Don't worry about the height while you're doing this. You'll cut back to an appropriate height once you get the trunk thickness you want. Generally you build a bonsai from the bottom up. Roots and trunk first, then worry about the top.

 

[Haidr]

Thanks for your reply Brian. I understand the logic now.

 

[SeanS]

Thanks for your response. Keeping this height all the time. It’s already straight enough getting any taller is not going to look good

As @BrianBay9 said you need to let a tree grow to make it get thicker. That’s where my original question came from, to judge if you understood the thickening process in bonsai. The trunk you have now isn’t going to thicken if you don’t let the tree grow, which will mean it gets much taller than it is now during that thickening stage. Once the lower trunk is the thickness you want then you cut all the stuff you allowed to grown off and grow the next part of the trunk (and the branches as they usually won’t stay within proportion during the thickening process).

Here’s an example, the long parts growing out of this little black pine are purely there to thicken the first 5” of trunk. Once the trunk is the desired thickness they all get cut off, with the eventual tree being built to be 7-8” tall (20cm or less). The long “sacrifice” extensions were intentionally allowed to grow to achieve thickening of the lower trunk.

 

[Haidr]

As @BrianBay9 said you need to let a tree grow to make it get thicker. That’s where my original question came from, to judge if you understood the thickening process in bonsai. The trunk you have now isn’t going to thicken if you don’t let the tree grow, which will mean it gets much taller than it is now during that thickening stage. Once the lower trunk is the thickness you want then you cut all the stuff you allowed to grown off and grow the next part of the trunk (and the branches as they usually won’t stay within proportion during the thickening process).

Here’s an example, the long parts growing out of this little black pine are purely there to thicken the first 5” of trunk. Once the trunk is the desired thickness they all get cut off, with the eventual tree being built to be 7-8” tall (20cm or less). The long “sacrifice” extensions were intentionally allowed to grow to achieve thickening of the lower trunk.

View attachment 578783

Thanks for the detailed response Sean. I understand the concept now. Will let the maple grow. I’m new to the world of bonsai and still learning. One thing I really appreciate is the support in bonsai community. Every time I ask something some experience growers step in to help. Best of luck with your black pine and happy new year

 

[misfit11]

As @BrianBay9 said you need to let a tree grow to make it get thicker. That’s where my original question came from, to judge if you understood the thickening process in bonsai. The trunk you have now isn’t going to thicken if you don’t let the tree grow, which will mean it gets much taller than it is now during that thickening stage. Once the lower trunk is the thickness you want then you cut all the stuff you allowed to grown off and grow the next part of the trunk (and the branches as they usually won’t stay within proportion during the thickening process).

Here’s an example, the long parts growing out of this little black pine are purely there to thicken the first 5” of trunk. Once the trunk is the desired thickness they all get cut off, with the eventual tree being built to be 7-8” tall (20cm or less). The long “sacrifice” extensions were intentionally allowed to grow to achieve thickening of the lower trunk.

View attachment 578783

Id cut that low sacrifice ASAP, Sean. That's getting thick enough to leave a decent chop scar, and pines don't heal chops that well.

Those low sacrifices are great for developing a thick base and taper, but the scars suck.

 

[Shibui]

The others have given great advice. I grow a lot of maples in grow beds in ground here. They regularly get to 2m tall in summer then chopped down to bonsai height each winter. That growth gives rapid trunk thickening. The regular chops give trunk taper and some bends to make the trunks interesting. After reaching close to desired thickness they are transferred to grow pots for a few more years to develop branching and canopy.
Leave your maple in the current pot through summer. Summer repot is possible for maples but much more likely to result in a dead tree.

 

[Haidr]

The others have given great advice. I grow a lot of maples in grow beds in ground here. They regularly get to 2m tall in summer then chopped down to bonsai height each winter. That growth gives rapid trunk thickening. The regular chops give trunk taper and some bends to make the trunks interesting. After reaching close to desired thickness they are transferred to grow pots for a few more years to develop branching and canopy.
Leave your maple in the current pot through summer. Summer repot is possible for maples but much more likely to result in a dead tree.

Hi Shibui, happy new year. Thanks for your response as always. I will definitely let it stay in the pot and transfer it to the ground later on. Just curious if you sell any of your maple bonsai? I’m from Melbourne

 

[Canada Bonsai]

I was looking for a acer palmatum atropurpureum bonsai

Why?

The fact that Atropurpureum is part of the amoenum group (Acer palmatum subs. amoenum) is, for me, very good reason to ignore it completely when it comes to bonsai: Japanese maples in the amoenum group tend to have larger leaves and do not behave or react like the palmatums and dwarves that we tend to use such as Arakawa, Beni Chidori, Deshojo, Kashima, Katsura, Kiyo Hime, Koto Hime, Seigen and Shishigashira. It took me a long time to accept this because some of my favorite cultivars, notably Hogyoku, are in the amoenum group. (To be clear: we are not limited to this list; there are hundreds of cultivars--and non-cultivars--that are potentially appropriate for fine maple bonsai).

You're giving yourself an extra challenge, and should know right away that it's unlikely that you'll be able to create a japanese maple in the 'Kokufu style'. This does not mean that you cannot create something nice and interesting with what you have, because you certainly can, but in my opinion you will have to design in accordance to what the tree allows just as people choosing to work with bloodgood, full moon maples, or acer rubum or ginnala must also do.

 

[Shibui]

Just curious if you sell any of your maple bonsai? I’m from Melbourne

Definitely sell maples. Tridents grow so well here they are my main line - seedlings through to older, field grown and Root over Rock.
I grow some Japanese maples - not because they make great bonsai or because they are easy, just do them because all beginners want JM.
Check https://shibuibonsai.com.au/ for more info. The catalogue page has links to the current catalogues for filed grown trees but there's also lots of less advanced trees too.

 

[Haidr]

Definitely sell maples. Tridents grow so well here they are my main line - seedlings through to older, field grown and Root over Rock.
I grow some Japanese maples - not because they make great bonsai or because they are easy, just do them because all beginners want JM.
Check https://shibuibonsai.com.au/ for more info. The catalogue page has links to the current catalogues for filed grown trees but there's also lots of less advanced trees too.

Definitely sell maples. Tridents grow so well here they are my main line - seedlings through to older, field grown and Root over Rock.
I grow some Japanese maples - not because they make great bonsai or because they are easy, just do them because all beginners want JM.
Check https://shibuibonsai.com.au/ for more info. The catalogue page has links to the current catalogues for filed grown trees but there's also lots of less advanced trees too.

Thanks for sharing the website. Nice stock you have got there.

 

[Haidr]

Why?

The fact that Atropurpureum is part of the amoenum group (Acer palmatum subs. amoenum) is, for me, very good reason to ignore it completely when it comes to bonsai: Japanese maples in the amoenum group tend to have larger leaves and do not behave or react like the palmatums and dwarves that we tend to use such as Arakawa, Beni Chidori, Deshojo, Kashima, Katsura, Kiyo Hime, Koto Hime, Seigen and Shishigashira. It took me a long time to accept this because some of my favorite cultivars, notably Hogyoku, are in the amoenum group. (To be clear: we are not limited to this list; there are hundreds of cultivars--and non-cultivars--that are potentially appropriate for fine maple bonsai).

You're giving yourself an extra challenge, and should know right away that it's unlikely that you'll be able to create a japanese maple in the 'Kokufu style'. This does not mean that you cannot create something nice and interesting with what you have, because you certainly can, but in my opinion you will have to design in accordance to what the tree allows just as people choosing to work with bloodgood, full moon maples, or acer rubum or ginnala must also do.

Haha. I wish I had this level of detailed information before I started hunting for Atropurpureum. I couldn’t find Deshojo either so got Atropurpureum when I found one. I will keep working on this one and keep updating where I end up. Appreciate the information though. Learned a few new things from your response.

 

[Steinar]

Why?

The fact that Atropurpureum is part of the amoenum group (Acer palmatum subs. amoenum) is, for me, very good reason to ignore it completely when it comes to bonsai: Japanese maples in the amoenum group tend to have larger leaves and do not behave or react like the palmatums and dwarves that we tend to use such as Arakawa, Beni Chidori, Deshojo, Kashima, Katsura, Kiyo Hime, Koto Hime, Seigen and Shishigashira. It took me a long time to accept this because some of my favorite cultivars, notably Hogyoku, are in the amoenum group. (To be clear: we are not limited to this list; there are hundreds of cultivars--and non-cultivars--that are potentially appropriate for fine maple bonsai).

You're giving yourself an extra challenge, and should know right away that it's unlikely that you'll be able to create a japanese maple in the 'Kokufu style'. This does not mean that you cannot create something nice and interesting with what you have, because you certainly can, but in my opinion you will have to design in accordance to what the tree allows just as people choosing to work with bloodgood, full moon maples, or acer rubum or ginnala must also do.

Hello Canada,

I'm not experienced with these groups/subspecies, and the information I found wasn't all that easy to navigate. Could you please give the name of the group(s) that have desirable traits such as small leaves?

 

[Steinar]

Why?

The fact that Atropurpureum is part of the amoenum group (Acer palmatum subs. amoenum) is, for me, very good reason to ignore it completely when it comes to bonsai: Japanese maples in the amoenum group tend to have larger leaves and do not behave or react like the palmatums and dwarves that we tend to use such as Arakawa, Beni Chidori, Deshojo, Kashima, Katsura, Kiyo Hime, Koto Hime, Seigen and Shishigashira. It took me a long time to accept this because some of my favorite cultivars, notably Hogyoku, are in the amoenum group. (To be clear: we are not limited to this list; there are hundreds of cultivars--and non-cultivars--that are potentially appropriate for fine maple bonsai).

You're giving yourself an extra challenge, and should know right away that it's unlikely that you'll be able to create a japanese maple in the 'Kokufu style'. This does not mean that you cannot create something nice and interesting with what you have, because you certainly can, but in my opinion you will have to design in accordance to what the tree allows just as people choosing to work with bloodgood, full moon maples, or acer rubum or ginnala must also do.

Hello Canada,

I'm not experienced with these groups/subspecies, and the information I found wasn't all that easy to navigate when it comes to leaf szie. Could you please give the name of the group(s) that have desirable traits such as small leaves?

Thanks!

 

[Canada Bonsai]

Hello Canada,

I'm not experienced with these groups/subspecies, and the information I found wasn't all that easy to navigate when it comes to leaf szie. Could you please give the name of the group(s) that have desirable traits such as small leaves?

Thanks!

It's difficult to navigate because Japanese Maple taxonomy is a work in progress, with a number of competing models being put forth by various groups and individuals.

Not to worry, I recommended focusing on cultivar rather than groups. Going with the usual cultivars is a safe bet:
Arakawa, Beni Chidori, Deshojo, Katsura, Kiyo Hime, Koto Hime, Ori Hime, Sango Kaki, Seigen, Shishigashira, Yuki Hime

People often talk about using 'standard Acer palmatum', and what they usual mean is 'generic' non-cultivar seedling (whatever that means). It is true that this is a good way to learn and, in general, they can be more vigorous (and forgiving) than the cultivars, but this is by no means guaranteed. I work with a few strains of 'standard Acer palmatum' that I have selected for their qualities... at which point, however, they fit the definition of a cultivar except that I have not given them a name

 

[Steinar]

It's difficult to navigate because Japanese Maple taxonomy is a work in progress, with a number of competing models being put forth by various groups and individuals.

Not to worry, I recommended focusing on cultivar rather than groups. Going with the usual cultivars is a safe bet:
Arakawa, Beni Chidori, Deshojo, Katsura, Kiyo Hime, Koto Hime, Ori Hime, Sango Kaki, Seigen, Shishigashira, Yuki Hime

People often talk about using 'standard Acer palmatum', and what they usual mean is 'generic' non-cultivar seedling (whatever that means). It is true that this is a good way to learn and, in general, they can be more vigorous (and forgiving) than the cultivars, but this is by no means guaranteed. I work with a few strains of 'standard Acer palmatum' that I have selected for their qualities... at which point, however, they fit the definition of a cultivar except that I have not given them a name

Ah, I see, thanks for explaining.

So none of these have leaves that stay red for the entire season, if I have searched correctly. So that might be why I, among others, have an atropurpureum. Any tips on a constantly red cultivar that doesn't have too large leaves?

 

[Haidr]

As Canada Bonsai explained, these do tend to have a bit larger leaves. I removed the old burnt leaves branch by branch and now all the new foliage appears in dark red colour but leaves size is a bit larger than the Jap maples I got. Regardless the colour of the foliage is beautiful