Creating a Hollow Japanese Maple

[Dav4]

Was fairly sure . Just checking . Not something you see after do you have a pic in leaf .

Japanese maple raft project

This is a maple I started as a cutting at least 15 years ago, or rather, it was layered off of a maple I started as a cutting over 15 years ago. For one reason or another, part of the trunk had died, so the roots were relatively one sided. I kept it around for a long time, mainly because it...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[Cadillactaste]

Japanese maple raft project

This is a maple I started as a cutting at least 15 years ago, or rather, it was layered off of a maple I started as a cutting over 15 years ago. For one reason or another, part of the trunk had died, so the roots were relatively one sided. I kept it around for a long time, mainly because it...

www.bonsainut.com

View attachment 532921

Can you put me in your will for that one? As I'm to old to adopt. truly love this raft.

 

[Dav4]

Can you put me in your will for that one? As I'm to old to adopt. truly love this raft.

How old do you think I am??!?




Actually, don't answer that.

 

[Cadillactaste]

How old do you think I am??!?




Actually, don't answer that.

I'm 52... so... ... at least my age... or that "will thing" really falls flat.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Japanese maple raft project

This is a maple I started as a cutting at least 15 years ago, or rather, it was layered off of a maple I started as a cutting over 15 years ago. For one reason or another, part of the trunk had died, so the roots were relatively one sided. I kept it around for a long time, mainly because it...

www.bonsainut.com

View attachment 532921

Very very nice Dave . Very inspirational against those that say starting trees from seed or cuttings . Will never create results before the creator dies . Great example of find the best bonsai that exists . From the material. That’s a gifted practitioner . Creating with passion . Congrats on your results

 

[DrTolhur]

So it sounds like the main argument against it is that Japanese maple wood is soft and rots easily. But what I'm struggling to understand is how that's a problem when that's my goal. I don't want deadwood, I want "gonewood." Wouldn't rotting away actually help achieve that look, like the raft example above?

I've seen plenty of examples in nature with deciduous trees having entirely hollowed-out trunks such that the whole trunk actually makes a C shape rather than circle. Perhaps those are exceptional somehow?

 

[Dav4]

I'm 52... so... ... at least my age... or that "will thing" really falls flat.

Yeah, we could’ve gone to high school together.

 

[rockm]

I get that you aren't criticizing. Truly...

That said...my gerbil stumbles on accepting the rest. Just by the trees I see on benches of friends in the UK. Collected Yamadori deciduous trees with scars/deadwood. They aren't doing it wrong...Harry Harrington...and Sean Stolp and ones...are not doing it wrong. That's where I stumble.

I've seen a decline on deciduous in the market of my trying to buy good bones. Scott Lee was my main go to. He's gotten out of a lot of deciduous...his words. The market isn't there.

Got in a discussion with one in a group. And they went on about flawless trunks and how hard it is to achieve a good deciduous tree. Again I paused...

I love Sergio is a huge deciduous guy. I hope his trees inspire ones to go heavy on deciduous again. Because...the market isn't there...concerns me. When I am a deciduous gal...and truly love them.

But if the market isn't there over flawless perfection...why not try and add merit to another avenue of deciduous? That's my stance.

I'll never accept...our reasoning for a flawless trunk. Just because I have to many UK based bonsai friends. I see their trees...and my mind can't aline with what ones say here. That's on me I reckon. But that's where I stand.

I don't think trunks on D trees should be flawless. Far from it. What I've heard from experts is hollowed out trunks on D trees are not really great thing to do. It isn't done in Japan and that is one of the biggest reasons from what I have heard from people who have experience in Japanese nurseries. And FWIW, the UK has far far FAR less collected deciduous bonsai than in the U.S. They work with far fewer species as well. I've got BC with deadwood, Cedar elm, boxwood as well as oak and maples. None of the trunks on y deciduous trees are flawless by any means.

 

[Dav4]

So it sounds like the main argument against it is that Japanese maple wood is soft and rots easily. But what I'm struggling to understand is how that's a problem when that's my goal. I don't want deadwood, I want "gonewood." Wouldn't rotting away actually help achieve that look, like the raft example above?

I've seen plenty of examples in nature with deciduous trees having entirely hollowed-out trunks such that the whole trunk actually makes a C shape rather than circle. Perhaps those are exceptional somehow?

Naturally aged Deadwood and uros are always the goal. That’s one of many reasons why I typically don’t apply wood hardeners to any deadwood features on both my deciduous and coniferous bonsai. Of course, once the image you are interested in has been achieved, you need to slow down and preserve what’s left or else the wood will continue to deteriorate until it falls apart.

 

[rockm]

So it sounds like the main argument against it is that Japanese maple wood is soft and rots easily. But what I'm struggling to understand is how that's a problem when that's my goal. I don't want deadwood, I want "gonewood." Wouldn't rotting away actually help achieve that look, like the raft example above?

I've seen plenty of examples in nature with deciduous trees having entirely hollowed-out trunks such that the whole trunk actually makes a C shape rather than circle. Perhaps those are exceptional somehow?

No rotting wood is rotted wood. If the trunk is rotten, it has difficulty physically supporting the tree. The interior also become a bug (borers in particular) and disease sump. I have seen both in my D trees with exposed wood and hollowed trunk. What happens in nature is misleading if applied to a tree in a container. IN the wild those trees with hollowed trunk can put on unlimited growth to outgrow the damage--not so in a container with regular bonsai maintenance.

Also, if you're looking at nature, look on the forest floor for the dead fallen trees. Those weren't as successful as the trees that continue to stand. I've seen at least around here, many examples of compromised trunks falling over, snapping in half, etc.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I don't think trunks on D trees should be flawless. Far from it. What I've heard from experts is hollowed out trunks on D trees are not really great thing to do. It isn't done in Japan and that is one of the biggest reasons from what I have heard from people who have experience in Japanese nurseries. And FWIW, the UK has far far FAR less collected deciduous bonsai than in the U.S. They work with far fewer species as well. I've got BC with deadwood, Cedar elm, boxwood as well as oak and maples. None of the trunks on y deciduous trees are flawless by any means.

View attachment 532929

I guess I keep forgetting about bald cypress as a yamadori.

Really...they have less yamadori deciduous? Truly? Their trees are do gnarly. I just must hang around the wrong crowd. Other than bald cypress... I try and think who I know with a wicked yamadori collection...on their bench. (Deciduous) and my gerbil stumbles.

That's a beauty by the way. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Nybonsai12]

Hollows and deadwood on a Japanese maple?

 

[Cadillactaste]

@rockm you mentioned your amur being an issue with deadwood. Yes? So quick Google search. Maples can be soft or hard wood. Not all are comparable. The guy in the UK has Japanese maple with the deadwood and has had them a long time. That is why that species appeals to me. Someone did a test run.

Upon further research...ahhhhh look what I found. That totally makes sense why he's had his so long and they are fine. A harder wood...

 

[DrTolhur]

Hollows and deadwood on a Japanese maple?

You're not really contributing to the conversation without elaborating on why. If it's just based on aesthetics, then that's just personal preference. I'm looking to learn if there's a more objective reason to not do hollows on Japanese maples.

 

[rockm]

@rockm you mentioned your amur being an issue with deadwood. Yes? So quick Google search. Maples can be soft or hard wood. Not all are comparable. The guy in the UK has Japanese maple with the deadwood and has had them a long time. That is why that species appeals to me. Someone did a test run.

Upon further research...ahhhhh look what I found. That totally makes sense why he's had his so long and they are fine. A harder wood...
View attachment 532934

The hardwood distinction is to set deciduous wood apart from "soft" wooded conifer wood. It's not really all that literal, since conifer wood lasts a very long time outdoors, while INDOOR furniture wood that hardwood is used for mostly lasts a long time INSIDE sealed and not exposed to the elements. It is abundantly clear to me that a dead maple log won't last as long exposed to the elements as a juniper long, particularly in damp, humid environments.

 

[Nybonsai12]

You're not really contributing to the conversation without elaborating on why. If it's just based on aesthetics, then that's just personal preference. I'm looking to learn if there's a more objective reason to not do hollows on Japanese maples.

9 out of 10 times, deadwood on Japanese maples look horrible. They are delicate trees, not rugged and battered. They push out delicate fan leaves and it would look silly to have some trunk that is beat to shit. Their wood isn’t designed for this feature. With that said, I like @Dav4 s j. Maples with this feature but he didn’t design it that way and worked with what he had(as he is talented and experienced enough to do so.

To me, a smoothed scarless curvy trunk on a j. Maple are among the most desirable of bonsai.

 

[Cadillactaste]

The hardwood distinction is to set deciduous wood apart from "soft" wooded conifer wood. It's not really all that literal, since conifer wood lasts a very long time outdoors, while INDOOR furniture wood that hardwood is used for mostly lasts a long time INSIDE sealed and not exposed to the elements. It is abundantly clear to me that a dead maple log won't last as long exposed to the elements as a juniper long, particularly in damp, humid environments.

But clearly some will rot out quicker...or is my gerbil drooling. (Maples)

 

[rockm]

I guess I keep forgetting about bald cypress as a yamadori.

Really...they have less yamadori deciduous? Truly? Their trees are do gnarly. I just must hang around the wrong crowd. Other than bald cypress... I try and think who I know with a wicked yamadori collection...on their bench. (Deciduous) and my gerbil stumbles.

That's a beauty by the way. Thanks for sharing.

Yes. They have less to work with and fewer people doing it compared to the U.S. Sheer numbers vs the U.S.--with those actually collecting trees --and the kinds of trees that are being collected --are with us Yanks. First off, The U.S. has 338 million people. The U.K. 68 million. Odds are there are more bonsaiists overall here.

For instance, there are 158 species of tree in an Appalachian cove forest alone. Cove forests are found in the Appalachians Pa. to Ga, and are among the most bio diverse places on the planet. Overall, The U.S. has about 850 species of tree nationwide (almost 100 of which are oaks, BTW). The U.K has just around 100 species (and FWIW only five species of oak-I mention this because it speaks to the extremes of diversity found here). I have collected live oak, wisteria, black cherry, cedar and american elm, American beech, Bald Cypress, red maple, Carolina silverbell, black gum (tupelo), sweet gum, Mexican plum, blackhaw, the list goes on. I've sold many of those off over the years. I know a dozen more collectors who have been working in the East for years (do a search here for "Zach Smith" collected trees being worked by members here, for instance). More are entering the fray every year.

All this this doesn't even get into the folks who are collecting Deciduous trees out west, where some states can fit the entire UK into their geographic area twice over. Talk to Alvaro at Cho bonsai about SW collected D trees and how fast they sell.

 

[rockm]

But clearly some will rot out quicker...or is my gerbil drooling. (Maples)

don't know what you mean. Rot is rot. Unless you live somewhere like out west where it doesn't rain, rot is accelerated by exposure. Unless you seal the wood (And even then, if the tree is left out in the elements, that seal fails) the wood's gonna rot. Yeah some sooner than others. Deciduous wood from the woods around me, typically goes first. Fallen beech tend to become punky and spongy in a year or two. Fallen Va. or loblolly pine skeletons last decades...

 

[Cadillactaste]

don't know what you mean. Rot is rot. Unless you live somewhere like out west where it doesn't rain, rot is accelerated by exposure. Unless you seal the wood (And even then, if the tree is left out in the elements, that seal fails) the wood's gonna rot. Yeah some sooner than others. Deciduous wood from the woods around me, typically goes first. Fallen beech tend to become punky and spongy in a year or two. Fallen Va. or loblolly pine skeletons last decades...

Softer wood has a shorter shelf life.