Collecting Hawthorn

[Javaman4373]

I have been searching our farm for hawthorn to collect and although we have quite a few hawthorns, most have no interesting trunk movement or the trees are too large. I have several small caliber young trees with good trunk movement with trunks around 1-1.5 inches in diameter. These are promising with a few years of growth and thickening of the trunks. I found this tree with a bit more size and I am considering collecting it this spring. It has too much trunk without a branch IMO, and the ground is still frozen, so I don't know what the nebari is like. Even so, I thought if with the pruning it will need, it might start new branches lower on the trunk that would be usable in the future. Any thoughts about whether this tree is worth collecting? It is currently growing in an old orchard and will not get good sun in its current location. If collected, I see the large high trunk going to the left in photo 1 as having to be chopped.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I chopped my hawthorns on collection, both large roots as well as trunks. And they flushed out with ease, buds everywhere.
So I'd say: go ahead! And also reconsider 'too large' because.. You can hack it back.
Mine are european hawthorns though, I don't know about other varieties/species.

 

[RMJoe]

I would definitely go for it. I believe Hawthorn airlayer pretty well, though I haven't had the chance myself, if you could collect and airlayer the top off that is a killer tree.

Do you have pictures of the bigger ones? I've been looking for collected hawthorns forever but it seems like nobody has them in the US

 

[Javaman4373]

I would definitely go for it. I believe Hawthorn airlayer pretty well, though I haven't had the chance myself, if you could collect and airlayer the top off that is a killer tree.

Do you have pictures of the bigger ones? I've been looking for collected hawthorns forever but it seems like nobody has them in the US

I have been looking at my bigger hawthorns to see if I can find a branch or trunk that would be a good candidate for an air layer. Many of them are growing in an ugly clump or the trees have trunk diameters of 6 or more inches and nothing suitable for an air layer so far. The young trees in the landscape are descendants of the larger ones I assume, since they are usally not far from a big one.

 

[Rivian]

Straight and no taper. Surely you can find better ones on waysides in the area

 

[Javaman4373]

Straight and no taper. Surely you can find better ones on waysides in the area

Agreed. That is why the suggestion that it get air layered, maybe about 12 inches up from the ground level, might allow a better spacing of branches and development of taper. Here is a small one I transplanted last year to a sunny spot next to the house for growing bigger.

 

[Javaman4373]

With more searching I found a tree with a 3-4 inch caliber trunk and two small low branches that could be collected and developed in the manner in this liink: http://bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATHawthornLilfordProgression.htm

I also found one that had a very interesting top with lots of movement and some taper, which could be air layered by using a step ladder to reach the spot. I think I found some projects for this spring.

 

[atlarsenal]

It looks like a little hip hawthorn to me. If it is, it probably has a nice nebari below those leaves. And they can be chopped as low as you want. I have several and I love them. I wouldn’t think twice about digging it. When appropriate for your area of course. We are digging trees now down here. But I would suppose it is still a month away or more for y’all?

 

[BrianBay9]

You could try air layering some where they stand. Since it's your farm, you can water as often as you need.

 

[Javaman4373]

It looks like a little hip hawthorn to me. If it is, it probably has a nice nebari below those leaves. And they can be chopped as low as you want. I have several and I love them. I wouldn’t think twice about digging it. When appropriate for your area of course. We are digging trees now down here. But I would suppose it is still a month away or more for y’all?

I don't think we have littlehip hawthorn this far north. I am not sure what species our local hawthorns are, I will have to wait to see leaves to maybe get a good determination.

 

[Javaman4373]

The tree I mentioned in post 7 that I plan to chop and collect has me debating what is the best time to do that. We are having what we call in Vermont sugaring weather right now. That is days above freezing and nights below freezing. That is when the sap starts flowing in sugar maples and many other deciduous trees in this area. It seems it is coming much earlier than it did decades ago due to the warming climate. Some local sugar houses are boiling already. So if the sap starts running up the tree, should one make a chop now to keep the nutrients below the chop? Next weekend it is predicted to have two days where the temperature does not go above freezing, but other than that the long range forecast is for the sap to be flowing.

 

[Zelrod]

Agreed. That is why the suggestion that it get air layered, maybe about 12 inches up from the ground level, might allow a better spacing of branches and development of taper. Here is a small one I transplanted last year to a sunny spot next to the house for growing bigger.

Your small hawthorn is really nice.

 

[Javaman4373]

Since collecting a hawthorn stump is now in the plan, I went to the area to evaluate other possibilities. I want to run them by you folks to see what you think. The last two are larger than the first two. I have lost enthusiasm for air layering up in the top of a tree, as there is good movement, but little taper possible and there is a risk of falling going up a ladder in the woods to make the air layer and water it if needed. Stump 4 has nice nebari and it emerges from the ground, but turns upward. Stump 3 has two really large roots and leaves the ground at a steep angle. Stump 2 has some movement near the ground, and stump 1, already has two small branches near the ground. What I have read about hawthorn stumps tells me they will sprout new branches after the chop, so a small existing branch is not such a big advantage. My preference is for stump 4.

 

[Rivian]

I really think you should be much more discriminating.

 

[Javaman4373]

I really think you should be much more discriminating.

What should I be looking for specifically?

 

[Rivian]

Solid nebari is great, but there definitely should be ones with decent taper. Through deer damage, lucky branch placements that can be removed as sacrificials, or on cleared grounds where an area was cut back by people and there is multiple years old growth after at least one chop. Check forest edges and roads/ paths in the area where you know hawthornes grow.
Avoid particularly bad roots, like splitting into 2 a long way before further branching, unless the taper/movement is so good that you want to layer (rarely worth it)

 

[Javaman4373]

Solid nebari is great, but there definitely should be ones with decent taper. Through deer damage, lucky branch placements that can be removed as sacrificials, or on cleared grounds where an area was cut back by people and there is multiple years old growth after at least one chop. Check forest edges and roads/ paths in the area where you know hawthornes grow.
Avoid particularly bad roots, like splitting into 2 a long way before further branching, unless the taper/movement is so good that you want to layer (rarely worth it)

Good taper is very hard to find in the trees growing in our landscape.The conditions are too favorable for tree growth, unlike say a high mountain. We have about 40 acres or so of clearcuts. The regeneration has a lot of stump spouts and young trees that just grow straight. I see little evidence deer browse the hawthorns. some of the trunks are studded with thorns and the bucks don't even rub antlers on those trees. Deer do like the fruit though.The deer here prefer apple, yew, maple, white cedar, and various small bushes for winter browse. The link I provided in post 7 showed a progression of nice looking taper over a period of years from a stump chop. I think I can produce taper in the little one I showed in post 6 over time.

 

[atlarsenal]

You could try air layering some where they stand. Since it's your farm, you can water as often as you need.

@Javaman4373 I missed in the original post that these were on your property. As long as they are getting some sun you could chop them low and ground grow them. As long as they are not in your way, you have the perfect tree building situation. I have a hackberry I am doing the same thing with.

 

[Javaman4373]

@Javaman4373 I missed in the original post that these were on your property. As long as they are getting some sun you could chop them low and ground grow them. As long as they are not in your way, you have the perfect tree building situation. I have a hackberry I am doing the same thing with.

I got the impression in some thread I was reading on hawthorn that chopping and leaving in the ground was not as good as chopping and collecting. That seemed counter intuitive. I sure see vigorous stump sprouts on the stumps our logging has left behind after cutting various other deciduous trees. It seemed the most successful method was to chop, collect, pot or grow box, and put in a black tent to keep the humidity high, as per Tony Tickle. I could try one in the ground and one collected.

 

[BobbyLane]

Harry harrington has quite a few hawthorn progressions, many of his trees were started from unassuming material


Caption reads:

"A side-by-side before and after of the same tree, a Hawthorn bonsai of mine. Pictured here in late 2002 after chopping but prior to collecting, and now, 20 years later.
Height 36”/91cm, bonsai pot made for the tree by Victor Harris of Erin Pottery."