Collected sand pines (pinus clausa)

[Weaponman]

New to the forum, but have been into bonsai for 6 years, especially native species and some tropicals.
I wanted to share my experiences with the sand pine, pinus clausa, which seems to have bonsai potential but given it’s limited range, it likely isolated to zones 8-10. Further complicating is lack of commercial availability, so collecting from scrub forests is the only option. In its natural environment the Sand Pine grows in a xeric habitat, It is typically the dominant canopy tree In scrub forests. They typically have a lower branch persistence better than slash Pine with sparse back budding, So you need to find thicker ones with many low branches or start with smaller ones to train early.

I have collected around a dozen or so in the last few years, late winter is best so typically January or February. I have found that after collecting and cutting tap root immediately putting into mostly inorganic bonsai soil Minimizes oversaturation in grower pots. Given the extremely fine sand that it naturally grows in, it quickly becomes too heavy dense and wet in a pot. Larger specimens may need 2 root pruning to reduce tap root and encourage shallower root systems.

i’m still learning about it through trial and error. Killed a few, but I’m Now trying to treat it like a JBP or a slash Pine. Trying to encourage smaller growth. Seems like needle length is easily reduced.
I’m also experimenting with feeding, it’s natural environment it grows in relatively in organic soil’s so I’m thinking I don’t want to overfeed.
Soil mix is approximately 50% lava, 10% pine bark, 10% sharp large sand grit, 10% turface, 10% pumice. Repot in spring, major prune and witein fall, decandle in late spring or early summer. Candles seem to come early and throughout summer. Trying to see if I can get a third flush.

Styling is typically formal upright or flat top style. You can find stunted ones in part shade in forest with twin trunks as well.

I’ve even started pre-chopping and pruning some in a forest patch and coming back the following year to collect because they are a strong grower in the ground if left alone.

Included a few photos of some of the ones I have had for a few years. Trunk thickness of 1-1/2”-2”.

Has anybody had any experience with these?
Thanks

 

[sorce]

Nice.

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[Paradox]

Welcome to BNut.

I have not seen anyone else experimenting with these before. Given its limited range, I can understand why.

So you might be the pioneer for this species as bonsai. Given what you stated above, it seem like it might be a great candidate for native pine bonsai in warmer climates.

If it is hard to find larger trees with more movement in the trunk, I would suggest trying to find smaller seedlings that can be wired to put some shape in the trunk.

I have done the same here with pitch pine. Most of them grow very straight trunks but I have collected 1 to 2 year old seedlings and wired them to get movement into the trunks before they got too big to bend well.

 

[MaciekA]

You speak of treating it like a JBP, so I'm curious: Any thoughts on how well this species would take to a colander + pumice + make-it-rain-osmocote-day-and-night style of growing? Have you tried to see how much you can juice up and accelerate very young seedlings?

 

[Weaponman]

You speak of treating it like a JBP, so I'm curious: Any thoughts on how well this species would take to a colander + pumice + make-it-rain-osmocote-day-and-night style of growing? Have you tried to see how much you can juice up and accelerate very young seedlings?

I initial tried just to get big ones only, but they are tough to transplant successfully due to large tap root. This winter I got about 6 seedling of various sizes to experiment with before the forest I collect got leveled to become a shopping center. That's one of my next things is to juice a few seedlings in colander with lava/ pumice/ turface + fert granules. I also want to try trunk wiring to get movement as suggested above. Another thing I'm thinking, because inground growth is so strong, wanted to try root pruning in situ and come back the next year to see if that makes taking larger ones easier. They like full sun and can take bone dry soil, once successfully potted and stabilized, they are pretty hardy, the trick is transplanting and no over pruning. This could be a good bonsai for south western climates. I think it will take 7a-10b, based on the horticultural research.

I am not the only pioneer witht the sand pines, I know of some people that have been playing with sand pine as bonsai for a bit, but its a select esoteric nursery crowd that probably don't post of Bnut. I've heard you can graft witches broom infected cutting and some other voodoo to create some super dense specimens, but I haven't really seen anything. I have to find one with witches or infect them myself to get that far.

I will update if there is a third flush on my formal upright.

 

[MaciekA]

before the forest I collect got leveled to become a shopping center

Wowsers! I've had a similar experience. The area where I collected several trees in November 2019 burned to a crisp in wildfires just under a year later.

Looking forward to your updates.

 

[Zelrod]

Thank you for sharing your experience with Sand Pines, I always eye them passing through central Florida. I plan to pick up one from a native nursery tomorrow to try not to kill.

 

[Weaponman]

Use extremely well drained soil and keep in full sun, they can take the heat so well. The habitat that they grow in naturally, is basically pure white sand hills. I’ve also been able to get 2 flushes reliably. Backbudding is really challenging with this pine, it’s important to get a tree with lower branches intact. I’ve only had a few adventitious buds grow from branches. I need to experiment more with needle pruning on younger trees to see if that helps create dormant buds like in JBP.

In contrast, I have a pond pine that backbuds like crazy with hard pruning because the tree naturally creates a lot of dormant buds in the trunk.

 

[Weaponman]

Here’s what mine are looking like two weeks after repotting and a few seedlings. Most are popping buds right now.

 

[wheatcherryowl]

It's awesome to hear that you've been into bonsai for 6 years, and that you're working with native species and some tropicals. That's really cool that you've been experimenting with the sand pine, pinus clausa, and collecting them from scrub forests. I can imagine that finding them can be a challenge, but it sounds like it's worth it for the potential bonsai material.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the sand pine and the soil mix you're using. It's always interesting to hear about different soil mixes and how they work for different species. I haven't personally worked with the sand pine, but it sounds like it has some unique challenges and characteristics compared to other pines.

 

[crab apple]

I've killed a few but I'm relatively new to bonsai. Also I'm not too good with pines in general but I'm learning. After reading this I may try again with sand pines. I did successfully transplant one at my old house. I even planted it on a board. I may go back and dig that one. Where I live and sometimes hunt there is an Airforce base that will sell you a sand pine "Christmas tree" permit for a couple of dollars. I have found some of the better specimens on old closed to vehicle traffic roads or places ppl turn around. Ones that have been ran over quite a bit but are now free to grow.

 

[Zelrod]

I've killed a few but I'm relatively new to bonsai. Also I'm not too good with pines in general but I'm learning. After reading this I may try again with sand pines. I did successfully transplant one at my old house. I even planted it on a board. I may go back and dig that one. Where I live and sometimes hunt there is an Airforce base that will sell you a sand pine "Christmas tree" permit for a couple of dollars. I have found some of the better specimens on old closed to vehicle traffic roads or places ppl turn around. Ones that have been ran over quite a bit but are now free to grow.

Sounds like a perfect place to dig! Just have to watch for the big tap root others have mentioned.

 

[Zelrod]

Weaponman, do you remove old needles like on a JBP with your sand pines?

 

[Weaponman]

They seem to fall in autumn. I worry that removing needles won’t stimulate growth like it does in JBP, so I haven’t actively removed needles on my larger ones. But it’s something I will play with in my younger collected ones to see if that helps it back bud at all.

 

[Weaponman]

Weaponman, do you remove old needles like on a JBP with your sand pines?

I’m not sure how easy it will be to pluck needles with the sheath base left intact. I’ll hit a few seedlings and see what happens

 

[Zelrod]

Thank you for your insight. My nursery stock sand pines are approximately 4-5 years old I'd guess. One of the two is very dense near the crown. I was debating on removing last year's needles but I wanted to get an idea of what you thought about the idea. As you mentioned they should fall off later in the year. I may remove them in the fall when I wire the smaller branches in place. Right now only the trunk is wired.

 

[Weaponman]

Thank you for your insight. My nursery stock sand pines are approximately 4-5 years old I'd guess. One of the two is very dense near the crown. I was debating on removing last year's needles but I wanted to get an idea of what you thought about the idea. As you mentioned they should fall off later in the year. I may remove them in the fall when I wire the smaller branches in place. Right now only the trunk is wired.

Try it. I think it’s only the previous year’s growth falls off, but I’m not sure how many seasons the needles will last for. I have one smaller seedling that seems to have all its needles it was born with still on main trunk. I will needle prune this one hard in the hope it sets dormant buds in trunk. In the past I’ve tried to collect a few more mature small trees with 1-1/2 - 2” trunks, because I noticed these trees had some adventitious budding on the trunk, and seemed to be a perfect candidate for bonsai. However, they all had big taproot issues and none survived. So adventitious backbudding is possible, I’m just not sure what’s the best way to stimulate it. It is a fire resistant tree at maturity, similar to Pond Pine or slash Pine, so perhaps bark damage/ layer removal may or may not also help stimulate dormant buds.

 

[Zelrod]

Thanks again for sharing your experience with the species! They kind of resemble mops with the small straight trunks and drooping needles . I've pruned them a little and wired the trunks since this was taken but as you can see, the old needles are pretty dense near the crowns. I'll thin out the needles this weekend and see how they react. I'll probably leave them in the nursery pot until the winter, then I'll see what's hiding the in soil.

There is a bic pen in the bottonwood pot for size reference.

 

[Weaponman]

Thanks again for sharing your experience with the species! They kind of resemble mops with the small straight trunks and drooping needles . I've pruned them a little and wired the trunks since this was taken but as you can see, the old needles are pretty dense near the crowns. I'll thin out the needles this weekend and see how they react. I'll probably leave them in the nursery pot until the winter, then I'll see what's hiding the in soil.

There is a bic pen in the bottonwood pot for size reference.

View attachment 476672

Those look promising, you can see why a flat top style might be easiest to train. I might try to Ramify the bottom branches and use the top as a sacrificial / experimental needle removing branch and let it grow and try to stimulate budding without shading out the bottom ones. What kind of soil is in those containers? They look healthy. Fun.

 

[Zelrod]

I bought these at a native nursery in SWFL for $10 each a couple weeks ago. The soil is potting soil from the nursery, it looks to be mostly pine bark. They had about 50 sand pines this size but I didn’t dig through them very thoroughly to find a good flare.