Collected Ponderosa Pine Questions

[Deleted member 17587]

Hey Bonsai nuts. I'm a newbie here and I recently collected a Rocky MTN Ponderosa Pine from a friend's land here in Colorado. The tree was growing out from underneath a boulder beneath a canopy of larger pine trees, on a slight incline. The boulder was oval shaped and the tree wasn't growing from the rock as much as it was just growing under the side of the rock. The main branch had grown up until it hit the boulder and then the whole thing shot out from underneath. After removing the surface bark/needles I was basically able to lift the tree right off the ground. (Minus maybe one feeder under the boulder.) It was rocky underneath the boulder so I think this PP was growing in its own little patch of soil. The root system and the soil was bound into a hard, flat, shale-like, compact mass. I packed it well and potted it immediately when I got home. I tried to lightly hose off some of the soil from the roots but not a ton came out. I worked at it for a minute and got a few smaller rocks out, but overall this thing was compact and I didn't want to mess with it too much. There are many roots hanging from the side which are out in the bonsai soil though. I had to pot it to the side of the pot because the roots are on the side that was under the rock.

So, down to why I've come to this community. I have so many questions about this tree as its my first RMPP.

1.) Should I be worried about the hard root mass, or leave it be?
2.) I know that she needs to recover for a year or two, but should I do anything to her at all?
3.) What about the candles? Should I leave them be, trim them or remove them?
4.) Should it be in full sun or shade in the beginning?

Any help is much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[M. Frary]

Nice! As with any collected tree just let it grow and get to know each other this year. If you didn't tear up too many roots dappled shade at first won't hurt then get it in the sun. Just watch your water.

 

[dick benbow]

Get your hands on the book authored by larry jackel about ponderosa pines! No better info anywhere!!!

 

[dick benbow]

I flew to denver from seattle a few years back to pay him a visit. very gracious and i learned a lot directly from our conversations. He's scheduled this fall to be a quest artist this year for the Puget Sound Bonsai Club.. I'm looking forward to renewing the friendship

 

[Deleted member 17587]

Thanks, I'm aware of the book and asked my local bonsai dealer about it this weekend. Seems that everyone here in Denver knows of him and the book but no one has the book. The denver botanical gardens just had a bonsai show and I bet he was there and I didn't even know it. I'm definitely hunting down the book.

thanks

 

[Jaberwky17]

It looks like that little tree has some fun potential. Nice find. I second the others on careful attention, no work (preferably including candles) for the first year at least. Info in addition to Jackal's book, Andy Smith uses this "calendar" to help with collected PP:

​

"Usually starting the foliage management is about the last thing I get to. I have a schedule I follow with trees, but it is not rigid since the individual specimens vary in their response. But in theory my plan is this:

1) first growing season transplant and let grow
2) second growing season let grow
3) start of third growing season shape with wire
4) third growing season let grow
5) start of fourth growing season repot
6) fourth growing season let grow, start foliage work

As I said, this is theoretical and the actual plan can vary a lot. I sometimes wire trees at the end of the first growing season if they are strong and the wiring doesn't involve extreme measures. Then I leave them alone the next couple seasons. I move events forward or back depending on how the tree is doing and how vigorous it appears. But I always allow a full growing season in between events. And around here I only transplant and repot in the spring -never in the fall.

Usually the pines grow so slowly that they don't even make proper candles for a couple years after transplanting. If they were strong enough and the candles were too long I would not hesitate to cut them back. A more common complaint is the needles get too long once the tree is being watered regularly. For this I shorten the needles with sharp scissors between early spring and mid-summer and then spray the tree with cold water and set it out of the sun for a day or two to prevent browning needles."

 

[fourteener]

Don't trim anything, get the tree out in full sun early in the season. When you get to the heat of summer, some afternoon shade might be in order. Being in Colorado you have a wealth of knowledge all around you concerning Ponderosa Pine.

I know full, all day sun can be a potential problem in the front range during the warmest months. Ask around! For now, it's obviously healthy with those needles coming out. Enjoy the learning process!!

 

[Dav4]

I'll echo what everyone has said by repeating that this one probably shouldn't have any work done to it's canopy for at least 2-3 years. Ponderosas grow SO slowly that that shouldn't be an issue. Don't worry about the hard, flat root ball. My understanding is that this situation is exactly what Pondy collectors are hoping for- essentially an entirely captive root system that can be lifted with minimal disturbance. Once the tree is growing strongly, maybe in 2 to 3 years, you're going to transplant and begin the process of changing out the natural soil and duff...maybe a third to one half at each repot. Also, if you haven't done so already, I'd start fertilizing lightly. As always, getting specific advice from locals who work with the same trees is the way to go...and I'll second getting Larry Jackel's book, "Ponderosa Pines as Bonsai".

 

[Deleted member 17587]

Thanks so much everyone. I'm definitely going to let it sit till next spring and see how things are going.

Any clue how old it potentially could be?

 

[BrianBay9]

I've collected lots of Ponderosa's, with about 80% success rate. The only thing I'd add to the discussion is to let the tree tell you when it's ready to work. I've had some sit and do nothing for up to three years before deciding they wanted to grow. So, rather than thinking of a schedule, wait until the tree is growing aggressively again before working on it.

Good luck,
Brian

 

[ibnozn]

I'm pretty new to this also but I've cooked a few trees getting them out into full sun too early. I just bought a Ponderosa off Andy and he recommends waiting until needles on new candles on just collected and repotted trees are about 1" before getting them out into the sun.

 

[crust]

My experience has been to get it in free-draining pumice based substrate and fertilize heavily with organics otherwise they piddle around and don't get strong. My goal would be to work up to 5 or 6 large tea bags( Espoma,Dr earth, etc.) or heaps of pellets(green dream) for this sized tree--plus added liquid fert this late summer-fall. The same for the next few years until buds double in count.

 

[ghues]

Crust, I'm interested in your comments re: fertilizing.
I only have one in my collection (going into 4th year) and what I have found was that fertilizing consistently gave too much growth and vigor so that the candles and needles were way too long. Its not native to the coast so I keep it in my driest section of the garden where it gets a lot of summer sun and protection from the fall to spring rains (60 inches/year avg).
After 3 years of a similar fertilizing program as you suggest, this year I've not fertilized it yet, I've held back on the watering (a little stress) and the needles have come up a nice healthy green, short and stocky needles. After removal of the second year needles the new ones will give a much more proportioned look to the tree
I will start a late summer to fall fertilizer regime again to provide overall vigor.
Any thoughts/comments?
Cheers
graham

 

[Baldemotions]

I picked up a couple Andy trees this spring as well and have a few questions of my own as I am new to pines. I did however throw together a blog posting with links to some good pine info.

http://www.mnbonsainetwork.com/pines/

The book of Laryy's can be found at Stone Lantern. http://www.stonelantern.com/Pine_bonsai_trees_Ponderosa_Pines_as_Bonsai_p/b1pon.htm

 

[crust]

Crust, I'm interested in your comments re: fertilizing.
I only have one in my collection (going into 4th year) and what I have found was that fertilizing consistently gave too much growth and vigor so that the candles and needles were way too long. Its not native to the coast so I keep it in my driest section of the garden where it gets a lot of summer sun and protection from the fall to spring rains (60 inches/year avg).
After 3 years of a similar fertilizing program as you suggest, this year I've not fertilized it yet, I've held back on the watering (a little stress) and the needles have come up a nice healthy green, short and stocky needles. After removal of the second year needles the new ones will give a much more proportioned look to the tree
I will start a late summer to fall fertilizer regime again to provide overall vigor.
Any thoughts/comments?
Cheers
graham

I am just speaking from my experience and am not a pondo specialist or anything. The tree shown and discussed needs to grow A LOT before starting refinement thus a porous soil and lots of fertilizer. Lets see, you personally grew a pondo hard and fast for three years and now have decided to refine it by no spring fert, needling, water shortening and it is responding nicely--this sounds perfect. I have had collected pondos that I were never given a regiment of strengthening and I just went with later season fert and conservative amounts--these trees weakened, never gained bud count, responded poorly to any technique and continued to do so until I changed things. I cleaned there root balls out of all mountain soil(very important I think), planted in very porous soil and fertilized heavy and they have become very healthy. Hopefully, like you, I can enter a more austere refinement program with similar success soon--its worked with other pondos.

 

[dkraft81]

If it was just collected work start it off in partial shade working it out to full sun in about a month. Watch the watering close. Youll want to leave that root pad and duff alone, itll clear out in time. Definitely get the book. I got mine at stone lantern.

 

[sdavis]

I am just speaking from my experience and am not a pondo specialist or anything. The tree shown and discussed needs to grow A LOT before starting refinement thus a porous soil and lots of fertilizer. Lets see, you personally grew a pondo hard and fast for three years and now have decided to refine it by no spring fert, needling, water shortening and it is responding nicely--this sounds perfect. I have had collected pondos that I were never given a regiment of strengthening and I just went with later season fert and conservative amounts--these trees weakened, never gained bud count, responded poorly to any technique and continued to do so until I changed things. I cleaned there root balls out of all mountain soil(very important I think), planted in very porous soil and fertilized heavy and they have become very healthy. Hopefully, like you, I can enter a more austere refinement program with similar success soon--its worked with other pondos.

Did you get rid of the mountain soil right away or in subsequent repottings?

 

[ghues]

I am just speaking from my experience and am not a pondo specialist or anything. The tree shown and discussed needs to grow A LOT before starting refinement thus a porous soil and lots of fertilizer. Lets see, you personally grew a pondo hard and fast for three years and now have decided to refine it by no spring fert, needling, water shortening and it is responding nicely--this sounds perfect. I have had collected pondos that I were never given a regiment of strengthening and I just went with later season fert and conservative amounts--these trees weakened, never gained bud count, responded poorly to any technique and continued to do so until I changed things. I cleaned there root balls out of all mountain soil(very important I think), planted in very porous soil and fertilized heavy and they have become very healthy. Hopefully, like you, I can enter a more austere refinement program with similar success soon--its worked with other pondos.

Thanks Crust,
I forget to clarify in my post that the "Pondo" I have is a collected tree from a well known collector south of the border. I have been unable to find out how it got north of the border but it belonged to one of our most experienced local club members who had it for a number of years in a back corner of his yard. He had neglected it and gave it me as he wasn't really interested in it. It still had a considerable amount of the original native soil so I removed about 50%, put it into a training pot with a mixture of 75-80% pumice, rest shifted bark and granite.
Cheers Graham

 

[Deleted member 17587]

I have this tree on my patio which is on the east side of the house. Right now it's getting morning sun until around noon before it's in the shade. I figured that it's the afternoon sun here in denver that is too intense. It hasn't even been hot yet.

Should it be in full shade?

 

[dkraft81]

When you work it to full sun, give it all the sun you can. The tree will love you for it.