Colander vs Terra Cotta?

[BonsaiNaga13]

Do you give those trees in those pots any special treatment overwinter? I have my 6 year jbp contest tree in a pond basket this year and it's my first year using pond baskets.

Anyone wanna respond to my question? I got till late autumn till it's a serious concern but I'd rather have an idea of what I should do sooner than later...

 

[JackHammer]

It was purely coincidence, I had been scrolling through this thread at one point yesterday, and later on last night I found myself in a different thread. I suppose the reason I decided to post these clashing comments was because it provides context. Information. I see it this way:
Some guy comes in bashing colanders, saying they are a waste of time or whatever. Speaks authoritatively, like he knows what he's talking about. As a newbie, I would feel like, "damn, I feel kind of silly for using a colander."
The context provided by my comment is that, you yourself at one point or other believed that colanders offered certain utility. You chose not to give this background information, instead simply writing them off as useless, but the fact is that you liked them at one point. As a newbie, I would find relief in this, for reasons [I'm having trouble articulating, but ] having to do with credibility. People who say one thing and do another are not people I want to take advice from.

Me, I have a couple trees in crappy colanders which I'm sure are completely useless for air-pruning. My preference are pond baskets that I found at Lowes, something like 9"x9"x 6 1/2" lwh size. Even so, I'd never make as bold and grossly generalized a claim about colanders as you have, since I can't back it up.
Overall, I guess I wish to cast an aura of skepticism onto those who make authoritative claims about "XY or Z being better or worse. Full stop.", Just about the only thing I took away from a college philosophy course was this: question everything

It's a tool. All of it. The goal is to get a big tree into a little pot and keep it happy.
From a less dogmatic stance, I think all of the tools likely have an appropriate utility and I appreciate the disagreement because then I know how people in the past have messed up.

One thing on colanders, I have found salad spinner inserts can be much larger but they are much more expensive of you buy them new. I have picked them up at goodwill in the past.

 

[sorce]

Anyone wanna respond to my question? I got till late autumn till it's a serious concern but I'd rather have an idea of what I should do sooner than later...

I put all mine on the ground, hell, I used to leave them on my third floor window sills where the INSIDE of the window would build up a half inch of ice.

Winter only ever killed stuff that doesn't belong here.

I'm still convinced my JBP seedlings didn't die from cold, but specifically from a cold that was too early onset, giving them no time to acclimate, cuz they died the warm winter after making it through the negatives the year before. They were in baskets too.

I personally think it's foolish to do anything extra.

I swear if you put them down early enough, they can lock into the myc network and learn from ground trees when the cold is coming.

Sorce

 

[Maiden69]

Anyone wanna respond to my question? I got till late autumn till it's a serious concern but I'd rather have an idea of what I should do sooner than later...

That's what I do with my trees. Right now I don't have any of my trees in any bonsai pot, they are all in colanders, terracotta, or plastic nursery pots. All of them go into the ground and get covered with mulch on the sides. On the colanders I place a little mulch on top of the soil as well. All my trees were covered like this when we got the snow storm in February, where all the trees were entirely covered with snow for almost 2 weeks. All of them except for my Japanese blueberry made it, as at the time I didn't know it was supposed to be treated as a tropical. I know some people winter is completely covered in snow for months, so that may be something to consider. I know most of the people with expensive trees either have a greenhouse or cold storage where they keep the trees for the winter. Main thing is that trees in pots are less cold-hardy as trees in the ground, so even if a tree is from an alpine location, leaving it in such conditions in a bonsai pot will definitely damage or kill it.





That's the bench I made 2 month ago, the entire underside is covered in mulch now, which is where I will place the trees that go dormant. The bench faces east, so they will get some sunlight from around 9-11 am.

 

[Adair M]

I'm not a fan of colanders......but pond baskets are useful when placed directly on the ground as the roots can easily enter the ground. You get the best of both worlds.

Actually, you are getting the WORST of all worlds.

Downward growing roots? That’s probably the LEAST desirable kind! Yes, they grow heavy. And that’s exactly why they are undesirable! Roots grow down to become tap roots. They secure the tree to the ground to make it stable. They grow fat.

Now, think about what we are doing. Bonsai. We are trying to grow and maintain trees in tiny pots. A limited amount of soil to sustain the tree. What we want us to use the available volume for feeder roots to sustain the tree. Bug, heavy thick tap roots will occupy much of the available volume, but they will have very few feeder roots. They are a waste of space.

The tree needs to be secured into the pot, right? On earth, trees are secured onto the ground by tap roots. We use wire to do that job. Therefore, tap roots are not needed for bonsai! By eliminating the tap roots, all the volume in the bonsai pot can be utilized by feeder roots!

So… heavy, downward growing roots should be totally eliminated! What you want instead are radial roots growing outward to make nice flaring nebari that fills the pot with small feeder roots.

 

[sorce]

When in the ground, with roots running as they do in the ground.....

It's better to have long thick downward growing roots that can be cut off.

Sideways growing thick runners will ruin the nebari.

Sorce

 

[penumbra]

Actually, you are getting the WORST of all worlds.

Downward growing roots? That’s probably the LEAST desirable kind! Yes, they grow heavy. And that’s exactly why they are undesirable! Roots grow down to become tap roots. They secure the tree to the ground to make it stable. They grow fat.

Now, think about what we are doing. Bonsai. We are trying to grow and maintain trees in tiny pots. A limited amount of soil to sustain the tree. What we want us to use the available volume for feeder roots to sustain the tree. Bug, heavy thick tap roots will occupy much of the available volume, but they will have very few feeder roots. They are a waste of space.

The tree needs to be secured into the pot, right? On earth, trees are secured onto the ground by tap roots. We use wire to do that job. Therefore, tap roots are not needed for bonsai! By eliminating the tap roots, all the volume in the bonsai pot can be utilized by feeder roots!

So… heavy, downward growing roots should be totally eliminated! What you want instead are radial roots growing outward to make nice flaring nebari that fills the pot with small feeder roots.

I respect your opinion and your presence but I agree with Pitoon and my experience is based upon observable results in dozens of pond baskets both on the ground and on pallets. These baskets are not left on the ground indefinitely in one spot and the roots they develop are very easily sheared off as baskets are move, usually in the spring or when heeling in during the fall. I have never seen a tap root develop in a pond basket but I would assume if a vigorous plant was left in one spot without lifting the pot and pruning off the roots, after a few years you would have a problem.

I think any and all of these methods, terra cotta, colanders, pond baskets, nursery pots, wood boxes and all manner of contrivances will and do work. This is quite obviously so, as they are all being used by thousands of people everywhere to great advantage. There are just too many variables involved, location, climate and micro-climate, exposure, growing mix, species of plant being developed, and most important of all, the growers understanding of all of these things.
I personally am using all of these methods mentioned. And yes, sometimes I think I coulda, shoulda done something different.

 

[Adair M]

I respect your opinion and your presence but I agree with Pitoon and my experience is based upon observable results in dozens of pond baskets both on the ground and on pallets. These baskets are not left on the ground indefinitely in one spot and the roots they develop are very easily sheared off as baskets are move, usually in the spring or when heeling in during the fall. I have never seen a tap root develop in a pond basket but I would assume if a vigorous plant was left in one spot without lifting the pot and pruning off the roots, after a few years you would have a problem.

I think any and all of these methods, terra cotta, colanders, pond baskets, nursery pots, wood boxes and all manner of contrivances will and do work. This is quite obviously so, as they are all being used by thousands of people everywhere to great advantage. There are just too many variables involved, location, climate and micro-climate, exposure, growing mix, species of plant being developed, and most important of all, the growers understanding of all of these things.
I personally am using all of these methods mentioned. And yes, sometimes I think I coulda, shoulda done something different.

If I have gotten you to think about the purpose of using colanders, about the role of tap roots, the benefits of developing feeder roots, then I have succeeded in my goal of elevating your (and others) understanding of how to use containers to their best advantage.

 

[Iowa newbie]

I use terra cotta extensively for training pots and don’t intend to switch!

Where do you get your terracotta, I have found some decent ones at Lowes. I am experimenting with them now, mixed results, but mostly because of my ineptitude.

 

[Pitoon]

Actually, you are getting the WORST of all worlds.

Downward growing roots? That’s probably the LEAST desirable kind! Yes, they grow heavy. And that’s exactly why they are undesirable! Roots grow down to become tap roots. They secure the tree to the ground to make it stable. They grow fat.

Now, think about what we are doing. Bonsai. We are trying to grow and maintain trees in tiny pots. A limited amount of soil to sustain the tree. What we want us to use the available volume for feeder roots to sustain the tree. Bug, heavy thick tap roots will occupy much of the available volume, but they will have very few feeder roots. They are a waste of space.

The tree needs to be secured into the pot, right? On earth, trees are secured onto the ground by tap roots. We use wire to do that job. Therefore, tap roots are not needed for bonsai! By eliminating the tap roots, all the volume in the bonsai pot can be utilized by feeder roots!

So… heavy, downward growing roots should be totally eliminated! What you want instead are radial roots growing outward to make nice flaring nebari that fills the pot with small feeder roots.

I fully agree with what you say regarding feeder roots. But really, having some roots escape into the ground from a pot/pond basket for several months at a time is not going to hinder the root ball in anyway. The tree will actually benefit from this. Once you pick up the pot to rotate it you are essentially root pruning and the process starts all over again. If one wants growth/girth you have to let the roots run......which is why everyone says plant it in the ground. For roots to become thick enough to become 'taproots' it would take a couple years to thicken to that point, and even at that point you can always prune them off when it's time to repot. Depending on what you have the tree planted in the container with you can control the roots within the pot while still letting the roots run for a bit.

The pics below are JM's that are currently being root trained. These were in 7gal shorts and all had their roots escape the pots. Was there some downward roots, yes but they were easily pruned off when I repotted them this year. The root spread is still there and only getting better with time.

 

[penumbra]

If I have gotten you to think about the purpose of using colanders, about the role of tap roots, the benefits of developing feeder roots, then I have succeeded in my goal of elevating your (and others) understanding of how to use containers to their best advantage

My practices have not changed, they have evolved. After 50 years in the plant business I am familiar with the elemental concepts discussed in this thread. There are always new things to be learned, but honestly, I learn a lot more by experimenting than I do by instruction. Still I keep an open mind, or so I hope, but the golden nuggets I find here have very little to do with plant physiology.
Having said that, I do appreciate your input on this subject and others you have frequented. The important thing here is to civilly discuss these issues for the general population on this forum.
.....and to never say or imply never.....

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Do you give those trees in those pots any special treatment overwinter? I have my 6 year jbp contest tree in a pond basket this year and it's my first year using pond baskets.

No special treatment. As I said, right now I only have 2 JWP in pond baskets. They are less than 3 years post grafting, probably will be only 18 months post grafting this autumn. I put trees less than 3 years post grafting in my well house for the winter, which keeps them in the 32 F to 40 F range. Once they get to 3 years post grafting, they will winter, on the ground, next to my other Japanese white pines.

JBP is NOT winter hardy in my area. In Saint Louis I'd probably give some protection, maybe an unheated garage. But colander, pond basket, wooden box or fine bonsai pot, I winter my trees according to their needs, pot does not change how I winter it.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

My experience with the 6-years JBP competition. They were first potted in terracotta pots. By the end the year I had to cut some roots as they were pushing out of the pot. Lots of encircling roots. A bit of mycorrhizae. Second year, same result. So this year I potted them into pond baskets. I will report my findings later this year but so far so good, but I can see extensive cover of the pond baskets by mycorrhiza already. Growth wise seems to be similar so far.

 

[Colorado]

Where do you get your terracotta, I have found some decent ones at Lowes. I am experimenting with them now, mixed results, but mostly because of my ineptitude.

I get my terra cotta training pots from a local garden center called Nick’s. I don’t know the brand, but I believe these terra cotta pots are made by a German company.

The color is a deeper red than the Home Depot brand, and the quality much higher. The pots I use are not showing any signs of cracking after 2 years, while the Home Depot brand break down much more quickly (usually start to crack after about a year).

The pots I use also come in better sizes for bonsai - they’re shallower and wider than the standard “azalea pots” they usually have at Home Depot!

I also use a tile bit to drill 3 holes in the bottom of the pot for tie down wires.

 

[Colorado]

Not all Terra Cotta is created equal!

 

[sorce]

This one I got from @VAFisher outlived the elm.



I thought it had a mark.

Not all Terra Cotta is created equal!

I think you'll have some that are always good, some that are sometimes good, and some that are never good.

They can be tested of anyone felt like getting scientific.

Outdoor Weather Resistant Ceramics

How can you be sure that the porosity of your fired ceramic ware is low enough to prevent freeze-thaw breakdown in the winter?

digitalfire.com

I'd be curious to learn the results.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Oh...and them new J. Cracks is bangin'!

Sorce

 

[MrWunderful]

The super fancy Japanese ones are where its at


My FIL bought 300 made in italy terra cotta 10” bulb pans a few years ago so I have a ton. Thats what I use.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

The super fancy Japanese ones are where its at
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My FIL bought 300 made in italy terra cotta 10” bulb pans a few years ago so I have a ton. Thats what I use.

I found some German ones at a local nursery called "culture bowls" 5 inches wide 3 inches deep but they've been sold out for a while

 

[SeanS]

I get my terra cotta training pots from a local garden center called Nick’s. I don’t know the brand, but I believe these terra cotta pots are made by a German company.

The color is a deeper red than the Home Depot brand, and the quality much higher. The pots I use are not showing any signs of cracking after 2 years, while the Home Depot brand break down much more quickly (usually start to crack after about a year).

The pots I use also come in better sizes for bonsai - they’re shallower and wider than the standard “azalea pots” they usually have at Home Depot!

I also use a tile bit to drill 3 holes in the bottom of the pot for tie down wires.

I’ve had mixed results drilling extra holes with a regular masonry bit. It takes ages and always blows out the junk once it breaks through to the other side. Do you find the tile bit is the way to go?