Cedrus lebani 1st styling

[maroun.c]

One of the few trees i could successfully move from nursery soil to bonsai soil this year. Tree elongated very well at the tips but didn't show any back budding. It was styled as it is before I got it but I don't like it. Yet not sure how to handle the very long branches. My only thought is to pull some from the side or back to fill the front and have pads that go up into a triangle to the top. The top of the tree going to the back is another challenge and its too hard to bend now. Want to do initial styling now as most branches are still quite flexible and won't remove needles hoping the added activity will help it backbud and would cut down to anterior buds when they appear and grow. Just out of ideas for style, any suggestions on how to handle it so it looks half decent ?

 

[Potawatomi13]

Would changing front of tree help any? Also can consider cutting branches back by stages(to not over stress or under foliage tree)to sprouts nearest trunk for re development of branching? Personally see potential for very good tree in there.
And always there is room to consider unconventional style with fewer branches(the ones with better foliage nearer trunk)showing tree that has struggled against elements. Unused branches could be all or some as jins. Meanwhile pick one or two upper ones for sacrifices to develop trunk size.

 

[maroun.c]

Doubt changing the front would help as thats the only side where the trunk and how branches emerge looks natural. Here are the 4 views of it.
U fortunately no new sprouts near branches. If u look closely the branches had multiple secondary branches emerging and they were cut (cut tips still visible ) I'm hoping tree would still back bud and ull cut back to any bud that pops up later on. At this stage my plan is to add movement to the branches to shorten them so the tree looks a bit better for a start and then proceed to cut back in years to come to new back growth.
The only plan I can think of, which actually matches how many cedars grow here is having many trunk elongate to one side as well as the apex and having multiple pads on the other side that are a bit shorter. Not really windswept just overall growing in one direction without branches being necessarily all going to one side. Cedars do typically have manyapices or pads all over which i can still get with this tree I believe.

cedar tree lebanon - Google Search

 

[maroun.c]

Front

Right

Back

Left

 

[maroun.c]

Wired the tree and repositioned a few branches as much as I could. Still need to compact tree on right side after it gets foliage close to trunk, will be also taking out 1-2 branches from right side to add definition and also work out the apex as it grows a few branches there. Tree will be tilted a bit to the front as well in next repot (pot elevated from back in this pic) to decrease trunk lean to the back

 

[Adair M]

The side you have chosen for the front won’t work. At least not in its current orientation. You simply cannot have the tree moving way towards the back as much as that.

You have taken all the pictures from too high. We’ve looking down on the tree, which gives a false impression. Take pictures from where the camera is only an inch or two elevated from the rim.

Changing the potting angle might help, but the amount of backward lean is a problem.

I would also get a bigger, wider pot. It looks unbalanced in that pot.

 

[maroun.c]

Was hoping I'd be able to hide the back lean as I can't bend the trunk further. Guess that would mean cutting down to a lower branch which would be half of the tree.
Here are pics as advised from all sides, the back lean can be seen more on the side views.

 

[Adair M]

As I said before, if you would repot the tree so that the tree doesn’t have such a dramatic lean as it comes out of the soil, it would be far better. I still say that it should move towards the viewer, not away. Your biggest problem is the potting angle.

Your next problem is the leggy branches. They are too long. Find a way to cut them back dramaticly. Maybe so that they are each half as long as they are now. And hope for back buds and regrow branches.

That wire is inadequate. It’s simply not strong enough to do much. Cedar wood is very sappy springy. To do anything with it means you have to overpower it with HEAVY wire. Copper works better than aluminum. The wood is stronger than that aluminum wire you put on.

You might not like me telling you that aluminum wont work. But, I’m telling you what you NEED to hear. Sorry.

 

[maroun.c]

Will lean it forward on next repot, yet doubt I can change the angle enough so top isn't leaning backwards without having the back roots be out of the pot.... so it will be limited.

Branches are indeed leggy and very long, simply no foliage except at the end and any anterior secondary branches were cut off at the nursery unfortunately, I'm hoping for backbudding to cut back to.

The wire I used is copper. I don't have access to annealed copper wire here so I buy copper they use for wiring motors and anneal it myself. Any bend I could make with the wood the wire was able to hold yet I couldn't bend the top of the trunk as its very stiff. The black color on the wore is the insulation the dip those copper wire in which gets black when I put them in fire.

Totally agree that copper works best and actually its easier to use as its soft while wiring and hardens and holds the branch rather than using thicker aluminum which would be tough to bend in the thickness that will hold the branch.

 

[Adair M]

Ha! Tilting the tree so the roots stick up is very normal! It might require having it mounded a bit for a while, and removing some roots, but eventually you can develop new roots.

But, you still don’t see that what you think is the back is actually the front!

The side with the Chinese letters on the pot is the front!

 

[Colorado]

I think you’re going to be better off just cutting back to one of the lower branches as a new leader and regrowing an apex.

 

[leatherback]

And hope for back buds and regrow branches.

How well do these backbud, do you know?

 

[maroun.c]

Ha! Tilting the tree so the roots stick up is very normal! It might require having it mounded a bit for a while, and removing some roots, but eventually you can develop new roots.

But, you still don’t see that what you think is the back is actually the front!

The side with the Chinese letters on the pot is the front!

Will try to tilt as much as I can on next repot then.
Problem with current back side used as front is that the lean forward of the apex is excessive and that the trunk from the back side has no fron branches, yet that might be easier to deal with than current front.
Thanks

 

[maroun.c]

I think you’re going to be better off just cutting back to one of the lower branches as a new leader and regrowing an apex.

Miggr just do that but I prefer to use whats there now, develop a new leader and let it run then hop the top and style it as new apex. I'm not sure if chopping will lead to a faster new leader or letting the tree grow and get more healthy will have backbudding and new leader grow faster.

 

[maroun.c]

How well do these backbud, do you know?

No idea yet. I kept a lot of foliage and fertilising heavy to see if it will backbud. So far I see no backbudding on my cedrus Lebani(have 6 which were reported this year so maybe this caused lack of back budding) ill check on a few that I didn't repot yet to see if they have any backbudding on branches. I'm not sure if pinching or pruning the tips will force backbudding or only allow dormant buds to open.

 

[Adair M]

Backward lean is absolutely unacceptable. It’s much easier to tilt the trunk back, and pull some branches forward using wire.

 

[maroun.c]

Checked few other tyres

Backward lean is absolutely unacceptable. It’s much easier to tilt the trunk back, and pull some branches forward using wire.

I did pull few branches to the front hoping they'll hide the lean as they develop. Yet the long branch flying back then forth doesn't look good even if hidden themata why I'm hoping for anterior branches to pull to front and shorten the long branches.
This branch makes a complete u and comes back to the front.


On the bright side checked my other cedars and they do show lots of backbudding so believe its still possible to get some back budding to work with

 

[Adair M]

You have the tree in front of you, and I don’t. You have to decide what looks good and what doesn’t.

Something to think about:

Your tree has heavy branches higher up on the tree. In an ideal world, the heavy branches should be at the bottom with thinner branches up high. You can fix this kind of problem by removing the heavy branches and only keeping the smaller ones.

 

[maroun.c]

Ended up pulling few branches to the front so that when these fill up this will bring the apex of the tree to the front eventhough the trunk and branches are pushing to the back and left, not sure if this is acceptable. If this doesn't work in couple years I'll just use any new leader that emerges from trunk before it leans back.
Also the heavy top branches will either be cut or jthinned and kept as dead wood. At this stage I'm not taking out any branches so that tree builds up energy next year and hopefully backduds heavily.

In below 2 pics taken from above the back of the tree is against the wall and u can see the u shaped branches going back to front. They're not that visible from front and hopefully when they fill up they'll be more hidden or that new growth will emerge close to the trunk heading forward somi can cut these.

 

[Rivka]

Have you had any luck with back budding on the lebani? I have been told by multiple folks i tend to believe that out of the true cedars, sadly this is the one that does not back bud, whereas the deodar for instance will do it quite well. I'm working a lebani currently that would be so so much easier if i could get it to back bud, but I'm not counting on it and working on other ways to get things going.