Boxwood For Real.

[sorce]

The Broadleaf Mugo. Follow me.
As it be, while the information on Mugo at Bonsai4me.com may be correct....Ahem...thanks Vance!

The more I think about this....
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/the-other-swepper.27503/page-2#post-481443



The more I believe this is....outdated, to be nice.
Utterly stupid, to be real.

Keep in mind we are trying to achieve bifurcation , ramification, biforkation, 2.4.8.16.32.64.etc PLUS back fill branches on EVERY TREE. This is what makes leaves smaller.

Let's consider one move, an action (prune or defoliate) and the grow back.

So for this b4me scenario...move one was Defoliating.
And the result is this growth.

Where move 2, will be cutting back to the fork.
And after 2 moves then we have 2 new branches. 2.
(Unless there is a better move 2...)



I propose, move one as a full forking cut.


Resulting in two stronger branches which all the energy went to.
And move 2 is cutting back those branches for a resulting 4 smaller branches with smaller leaves.

Double the biforkation in 2 moves.
With no wasted energy.

Gotta go to baseball.

I got some pics and more concepts I'm organizing, so I dont want this to get too dirty.

Thoughtful comments welcome.

This is not for baiting...

This is because Boxwood is misunderstood and I'm pretty sure I know why.

This is to change the boxwood game.

Just starting at the top.

Sorce

P.S. I was being modest in that swepper thread....
Where I said 20 pads were going to present themselves....
I actually went and counted and its closer to 60.
No Defoliating. No knuckles.
One season.

 

[Waldo Street Pottery]

I'll add the thought that sometimes when you remove the center shoot it can leave an angle that is too extreme. I've learned to judge that angle before the cut and often take one of the side shoots to help create a softer look and turn the branch in more of a single direction, if it is desired.

Also, when you get new shoots, the 2 leaves at the base will turn into "Mickey Mouse Ears" that I will eventually take off. They have done their job by producing the buds for the new shoots and will only get bigger and thicker, and block out air and light from the interior. Removing these is a tedious and time consuming process, and I love it!

 

[TyroTinker]

Thanks good info. I wonder if anyone can ID my tree I've been thinking boxwood but the bark doesn't match the boxwood I've been seeing on here. I'm hoping someone knows if it is a certain cultivar or if I'm way off base thinking its boxwood.


Top down view

It was my first ever pruning sooo not that pretty

 

[cbroad]

@TyroTinker
Yeah, it's a boxwood, looks like suffruticosa with it's larger, softer, rounded leaves. Also, the tip die-back reminds me of it. Maybe also "Green Beauty..."

 

[TyroTinker]

Thanks. I'll look into those. Do you know if they do alright with the bonsai lifestyle? You mentioned tip dieback.

I've got 4 of them that were hedges when I bought my house. My wife wants them gone but I convinced her to let me keep them for bonsai. So I will need to be digging them up by next year. So either way i will be trying to do something with them.

 

[M. Frary]

I've been just cutting to the last fork. I keep getting the normal sized boxwood leaves. For 3 years.
Next year since that obviously doesn't work I'm doing the Tree4me method.
Harry knows what he's talking about I believe.
What does Ryan Neil say to do?

 

[music~maker]

The Broadleaf Mugo. Follow me.
As it be, while the information on Mugo at Bonsai4me.com may be correct....Ahem...thanks Vance!

The more I think about this....
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/the-other-swepper.27503/page-2#post-481443

View attachment 159067

The more I believe this is....outdated, to be nice.
Utterly stupid, to be real.

Keep in mind we are trying to achieve bifurcation , ramification, biforkation, 2.4.8.16.32.64.etc PLUS back fill branches on EVERY TREE. This is what makes leaves smaller.

Let's consider one move, an action (prune or defoliate) and the grow back.

So for this b4me scenario...move one was Defoliating.
And the result is this growth.View attachment 159071

Where move 2, will be cutting back to the fork.
And after 2 moves then we have 2 new branches. 2.
(Unless there is a better move 2...)



I propose, move one as a full forking cut.

View attachment 159072
Resulting in two stronger branches which all the energy went to.
And move 2 is cutting back those branches for a resulting 4 smaller branches with smaller leaves.

Double the biforkation in 2 moves.
With no wasted energy.

Gotta go to baseball.

I got some pics and more concepts I'm organizing, so I dont want this to get too dirty.

Thoughtful comments welcome.

This is not for baiting...

This is because Boxwood is misunderstood and I'm pretty sure I know why.

This is to change the boxwood game.

Just starting at the top.

Sorce

P.S. I was being modest in that swepper thread....
Where I said 20 pads were going to present themselves....
I actually went and counted and its closer to 60.
No Defoliating. No knuckles.
One season.

This is definitely one of those "more than one way to skin a cat" things. A third way is to let the tree grow shaggy, then only prune back to established branches for several years (these things work like fractals when you treat them this way). That lets the branches develop naturally and you will get natural ramification that way. Takes longer, though, because you have to wait for that next branch to show up.

Then (a fourth way!) let the tree grow shaggy again, and cut it back to a canopy, removing the growing tips around mid-summer when it's growing strongly. Not necessarily down to two leaves, just wherever makes sense for the canopy. I often use this method in conjunction with the previous way I described, with lots of growing time in between.

All of these methods generate similar results. The ways I described are what I do when I'm developing branches and still hoping to thicken the trunk a bit. I find it strikes a nice balance between mostly unrestricted growth, but keeping it just constrained enough that I'm still in control of the design.

The way you described gets you faster ramification, but doesn't allow for as much growth in between, so might be better for refinement stages. Similarly, the original method you posted might allow for a little bit of extra growing time, which might be useful in some circumstances, but would probably be less than the two methods I mentioned. Could be useful if you want to thicken up the base just before the cut a little before you cut - could improve taper a little.

All just different tools in the toolbox. The way you get to the final result can be as interesting as the result itself, as they will all leave their unique mark on the tree.

 

[cbroad]

I don't have any experience with English boxwood and bonsai but I don't see why they couldn't be used. But in me area, English boxwood can be finicky, especially with the blight that affects any boxwood with the sempervirens parentage. If your wife wants them gone, I say give them a shot!

 

[Rambles]

I've done both on a dwarf boxwood and the only issue I encountered, if you can call it that, is Method 1 gives you more planning time, especially on plants where you are still trying to get an asthetic bead on.

Method 2 can also, in my limited experience, backfire and give you only partially reduced leaves

 

[music~maker]

One other thing I didn't think of before ... the bonsai4me way is a way to hedge against die back. If your branch is strongly growing when you cut it back, you'll probably get a good response. But if the branch is weaker, that branch might die back after pruning and you could lose it. By letting the smaller branches develop first, you have something established to cut back to rather than forcing the plant to grow right after you've cut it.

So overall, you'll probably get higher predictability with the bonsai4me way. Whether or not that matters or not would depend on the circumstances. If I had a branch that was really important to my design, I might be more inclined to do things the slow way to guarantee that branch stayed where I wanted it. But if you're working on an area that's less critical, the faster path might make more sense.

Just another thought ...

 

[sorce]

I'm trying to understand when, how often, and how much, people are pruning them when they do.

To where, and for what purpose.

This method I'm trying to serve you is based on pruning twice, once before spring growth. Once before summer growth.

I've been just cutting to the last fork.

Branches fork?
Or last two buds fork?

How many times a year?

let the tree grow shaggy,

This "shaggy" makes me think of how boxwood is from the nursery....bunch of tridents and reverse taper.
Trying to prevent that!

Are you making one "move" per year, or are you cutting back in either of your ways twice a year?

Otherwise, I fully understand.

How do you then deal with your resulting interior branches?

FTR, I'm at like an 11 on the 1-10 anal scale.
I can't let an opposing bud form let alone a branch, unless where needed.
Where do you stand there?

__

How many times a year are folks cutting these back?
Or making a "move".

Move, defined as; an action where the reaction is new growth. Pruning/Defoliating.

The time it takes to get back into a

Ryan Neil

"energy positive" should be roughly the same.

Assuming the trees are healthy of course....
But this thread is about GETTING THEM HEALTHY.

To throw it in a nutshell real quick...

1 move a year and you're not paying enough attention.
2 moves a year is appropriate.
3 moves a year is flirting with health.

I think in between 2 and 3 is where the small leaves come in.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

That's to say, it doesn't matter what your "moves" are.....

As long as they work....

But I still see no benefits to this Defoliation.

It seems more, the Defoliating itself is what causes the very need to,

hedge against die back.

Odd how that works.....

Sorce

 

[sorce]

All 4 of these box were acquired and pruned in spring.
May28-june7th.
Then they all had more work and minor pruning done August 11th-12th.

They all have set winter dormant buds....
Except for THE BAREST PART OF ONE.

That's what led to this Study.
And the observations are amazing enough to share.
The way they all answer the questions each other brought about.

It's hard to organize because of this...

But this is also serves well as a guide to reading ANY TREE.





On the above, all the leaves are out, and its settling in to store energy for the rest of fall.

This one however,



This one, while dormant in near 85%, the MOST HEAVILY PRUNED areas are still trying to grow more leaves.

Some observations and brainstorming. Rhetoric.

All these trees WANT to be done growing.

It is not the timing of the pruning that caused this later growth, they were all pruned at the same time.

Seems only the mass that it is trying to replace.
As if too much was removed, particularly for fall.
(Do big reductions in spring.)

Seems this One year won't kill it.
But how many years would I be able to get away with not allowing it it's dormancy when it needs it.
3-5?

One more pic with one more rather unnecessary note.

This is the ONE acquired a week later, and pruned later and a bit less in spring. It is over there...and fully dormant.

Cont'd

 

[sorce]

@music~maker .....
Finding that rest.

I went back in and found my summer dormancy points.

Observing this growth period is key because I want to be making my second move as close to right when that starts growing as possible.

Total schedule.
Cut directly before spring growth, grow, rest.
Cut directly before summer growth, grow, rest.
Health Dependant light prune and stlye mid August.
July repots.



There is always one or more signs at the summer dormancy point.
Usually a set of buds stacked so close it appears to be four all the way around at one point.
A summer "terminal" Which in winter is 3buds.
A couple smaller leaves.


On the above branch, it's clear there are no buds at those first 2 new summer growth leaves.

Usually the same for spring growth.

I have noticed if left alone, a healthy tree will eventually develope buds in these locations.

But sometimes, as in the case with this very aggressive branch, those first 2 leaves do have buds.

You see it didn't HAULT as abruptly as the others did.
Kept stretching.
Also was the ONLY branch to nearly push secondary branching off of the same spurt of growth.
Highly highly aggressive.

So of course I question!

Why?

The answer is simple, but in being so, highly complex for humans!

Who has the quote, "the trees are our masters"?

He knows what I'm talking about.

The answer folds into my theory on "Smart Box".

Same reason that one tree isn't fully dormant yet.

We know trees go round at the top because they reach the highest point their particular tissue can carry water, then every lower branch maxes out.

Boxwood has this same characteristic.
But I would argue to a much greater degree.

I believe the biggest problem we run into is trying to do to box, what box already wants to do for us!

It is smarter than we are.

This whole...
Super human stupid trick of Defoliating.....
Oh it's amazing, but to what purpose?

That very aggressive branch...
Aggressive for no other reason than it has space to fill.

There is no other foliage near that branch.
For about 1ft (30cm) around the entire branch.

Bullshit right?

No way a branch can be so smart it grows to "fill a space".

Not exactly, but that is EXACTLY what is going on here.

There's quirks to it.

Quirks we can use to work with the tree rather than against it.

Cuz even if there are stragglers, like box, and ficus, that we still think it's OK to defoliate,....
It may be ok...
But without adverse effects to the design.
It's stupid to.

Cont'd.....

 

[sorce]

Smart Box!

This is the most amazing to me.

You may not have believed that vigorous branch was consciously "filling that space ", but this may convert ya!

I observed very clear lines that box grows to.

There are three silhouette perimeters if you will.

An outside one, which is where extensions chose to fill next year's furthest reaching space.

A middle one, which is this year's "hedge" silhouette.

And the inside one which is the previous years "hedge" silhouette.



To different branches from a fork.
One stopped.
One extended, and set Back branches that stop almost exactly where the other ends.



Some of this is slated for removal, so they are wired and cross from the hand of man....
But when brought out by the same hand of man...
They all end at the same silhouette.


How bout these without hand.

Everything lands at the same edges!


Another three, two which stopped, one that left branches at that silhouette, and threw a stretcher.



So them leaves.....

That one vigorous branch has bigger leaves.
The rest of the leaves are as uniform as the edges these stop growing at.

The one I left the fullest overall, default most ramified...


By far the smallest leaves.

I don't think you can see it in the other pics with the three.

I know this swepper has a vigorous branch or 2 with larger leaves.

I'll get three leaves off of each tree and we can compare.

That swepper does have more uniform and more handsome leaves overall.

But I don't even know for sure myself yet!

Cont'd

 

[sorce]

So what if not defoliating?

SmartPrune! SmartBox.....take a picture with a....

#proper nexts!

Hell yes as Ryan Neil does!
He has a Degree...acquired for bonsai.
He didn't find bonsai after acquiring the degree, he got the degree to better do bonsai!
Then completed an apprenticeship like no others.
Which is arguably more educational than a University education...
Unarguably more humbling.

I say that Cuz I got ideas, and Gary Wood enlightened me greatly with PPB, but Ryan has refined my pruning approach to where I am faster and more fearless.
Which has everything to do with health and repotting and nothing to do with pruning!
Kuz all that "Kimura's pruning" is just regurgitated bullshit! That's just a joke for Mike!

Just remember this is merely a bunch of...

"Why wouldn't you?"s

That I don't have an answer for myself.

Oh...one more interesting observation....
There were places where spring growth was one inch on one side of a fork, and two inches on the other side of the fork, the short one grew more in summer and they stopped at the same edge again.
There is an obvious compensation.
The tree clearly registers spring growth before issuing summer growth that already has a predetermined stop point. @Vin note...
If that predetermined stop point is later, I think it is safer for you to do a light prune and style that third go round before winter dormancy.
But I think trying to squeeze in another whole pruning goes against the 2 flushes of growth the tree provides.
It allows longer growing seasons to further flirt with health and smaller leaves...
Or.
Allow you the opportunity to just grow bigger, healthier trees just sticking to this schedule. IMO.

Because this is about working with the tree.
If it doesn't grow three times....it aint supposed to!


Anyway so this is from up yonder..

My proposed, using one pruning for direction, and one for ramification.

This is how I will do that one next year.

Directional or fork pruning can be done in spring or summer..

With how box is gonna end up growing out to the same edge, and how pruning is so predictable, you can throw in a little clip to one or the other to get em back on the same schedule pretty easily.

Little weekly removals and PPB is nothing for a healthy tree.

Sleeping!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Smart pruning cont'd....



This is an instructional, practice, and safety cut.

But let's call it a directional pruning, since that's where it will be applied in the future.

This is very particular.
Removing the leaf on the branch side so it doesn't swell the inside of the curve and cause reverse taper.
Same as a branch on the inside of a curve, but smaller.

Removing the opposing bud with the middle extension...

Yet leaving the opposing leaf!

That leaf will help heal the wound, and give you .57%energy keep it!

@hometeamrocker I'd rather you make more pots but I have no shortage of

tedious and time consuming,

Processes to meditate with!

So this is then what is left in the apex here.

The directional prune I made to watch this leaf leaving process.
Since I have no buds yet on the first nodes, I hope to cut that yellow line before spring growth to start forking around there.
I'd rather it be the next ones down for the area they are heading to is more appropriate...

But....and I sure don't want this to be anti Harry...I love Harry's site....

I can get that branch to safely twist around later if I need.
That information will have you believe wiring can only be done on new shoots.

I'll get a pic of the branch I have the most stressful wiring and work done to it.

There are sure signs pointing too organic fertilizers making for less brittle growth, but the jury is out.

Either way with the right pressure uniformly applied to the branch, it's not impossible to severely bend quarter inch branches, maybe even a little thicker.

The problem with wiring, and the reason I'd rather not wire traditionally if not absolutely necessary, is the bark..
The fragility of the shoot connections, and new buds.

A proper anchor alone can compact or flake off bark around areas that will look ugly as hell.

That's the end of the initial brainstorm.

...........

Still looking for a theory on Why that Defoliation is more than a waste of energy.

We should not have a final structure which that Defoliation results in..
So what, not already covered, is the purpose of that move?

I want to see where it results in a properly forked set of final branches....
AND the leaves stay small.

That's our whole goal, I don't see this process meeting both those 2 requirements.

It can't!

Sorce

 

[StoneCloud]

Who has the quote, "the trees are our masters"?

He knows what I'm talking about.

Cont'd.....

You rang?

Sorce, you are right. Trees and all plants are so much smarter than any one can even grasp. I know you get it though and you are right on what you're saying about the "smart box"

A tree shapes itself the way it does for reasons, some of which we can't understand or even know exist. So a hole in it's canopy has to be filled and it's doing it regardless of when. Obviously all species react differently and some are "smarter" than others..........this is the fun part about learning trees.

This is a very good thread and I've learned from it as well, cheers!

Have you tried letting the spring growth grow out and set then pruning it back and leaving just 1 or 2 sets of new leaves? This I've found produces good branching....just a thought!

 

[sorce]

Thanks Bro!

Have you tried letting the spring growth grow out and set then pruning it back and leaving just 1 or 2 sets of new leaves?

I kind of did that in reverse this year.
If following a 2 pruning times understanding.
I cut back in spring, and more or less skipped the second summer pruning.
Except for minor here and there removals of things that was purposely slated for removal as soon as lower parts showed vigor.

If you are finding this interesting so far....
More interesting could be this leaf study.....

Sorce

 

[sorce]

So rather than just find the biggest and smallest leaves....

I found one average leaf from each of three trees.
The Swepper which is the best ramified.
An average tree. (No top down)
And the one that is not dormant and in most bare state.

An average leaf was also selected from each of these silhouette perimeters.....

Here is a top down of the best and worst with the three silhouettes.




Note this is not just bottom to top.

Let's first look at this sacrifice branch that was left to its own devices in spring.

Here's where it attaches.
I plan on ditching that close still green shoot eventually, and leaving that green keeper line.


Here you can see where it responded to the spring pruning, sending 2 inch long internodes to quickly move out from under those shoots above it.
This is THE ONLY place this occurred on this tree.

Box WANTS TO BE UNIFORM!

I want to help!

So I took this opportunity to remove ALL THE REST OF THESE large leaves.


These are the rest of the big leaves from the Swepper.
Big, being the ODD man out leaves that box doesn't even want to have!
(The bottom ones on the following graphs.)



Which is to say...

Simple problem.
Problem solved.

These extra large leaves on vigorous shoots and old Mickey mouse ears are easily Dealt with.

And after the first year, will likely never be present again.
Except maybe around an aggressive repot.
Or too aggressive 2nd pruning.

Cont'd......