Bougies' fresh growth is coming in real light-green (even small hints of yellow in spots!)

[SU2]

Am hoping this is some simple micronutrient issue or something, I've got a bunch of bougies and today I went out and two of them (one regular size one very large, both yamadoris from ~4mo ago that have been thriving) had a bunch of leaves that were notably paler green than usual, and some leaves had a yellowish hue starting on them, there's been nothing out of the usual for these guys but I'm now realizing that I've got them in inorganic media (DE/pumice/perlite) and am feeding with generic miracle gro (ie little/no micronutrients) and realizing they could just be running low on (iron? Mg+?), any guidance would be greatly appreciated!

(am in zone 9a/9b in FL (gulf coast), weather has been normal..)

 

[sorce]

MG should have them Iron and such...no?

Sorce

 

[milehigh_7]

Let's see them and the soil you have them in.

Nevermind on the soil... But I need to see the leaves nice and clear.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Photos help a ton...

 

[LanceMac10]

These the same trees you posted about earlier? The collected stuff you started pruning immediately as it started growing?

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/i...-touch-my-2mo-old-yamadoris-growth-but.27684/

 

[Starfox]

Bougies sulk at times, my collected one has sulked for ages and only coming good now.
I believe in the U.S you guys have access to a fert called Bougain, maybe switch to that as a start(not saying that is the answer but it is a Bougie specific fert at least). If I could get it here I would try it out at least but as others say pics will help a lot.

 

[LanceMac10]

"Regular" fert is fine. We use fairly mild doses here on the ranch. Bougies seem to be more about water, sun exposure and tight feet......Bougain just megadose of phosphate, (phosphorous).

 

[Starfox]

Yeah I use a regular basic brand fert with micro nutrients with no issues, I would try Bougain if it was available is all.
One of mine is slightly yellow too but I take that to it just sulking from the root trim a few months back and figure it will sort itself out in time and regular feeding but OP's yellowing may be entirely different.

 

[GrimLore]

"Regular" fert is fine. We use fairly mild doses here on the ranch. Bougies seem to be more about water, sun exposure and tight feet......Bougain just megadose of phosphate, (phosphorous).

Same and "if" Crystal wants to see blooms I put them out in full sun and hit them a few times with High P using GroTek. I only use light doses of 20-20-20 with Micros if they are shaded to promote vegetative growth as they do show much lighter leaf without it. They are shrubs after all

Grimmy

 

[my nellie]

Bougainvilleas suffer from iron deficiencies.
This might be the reason for the yellowing of the leaves.
I have solved this problem on my plant simply by putting some rusted nails and one drill bit on the soil surface (partially covered them)
It has worked just fine!

 

[twisted trees]

A simple harmless thing to try is Epsom salts for the magnesium which plays a part in chlorophyll functions. If there is a deficiency they will green up in a week.

 

[SU2]

Will have some pics up shortly!!

Bougainvilleas suffer from iron deficiencies.
This might be the reason for the yellowing of the leaves.
I have solved this problem on my plant simply by putting some rusted nails and one drill bit on the soil surface (partially covered them)
It has worked just fine!

Yeah I'd read about iron and magnesium being common deficiencies in bougies, I'm unsure whether it's better to try one at a time or to try small doses of both concurrently (my concern is that the two of them compete for uptake so too much of one depresses the other, am worried of guessing at the wrong one and exacerbating the problem!)

A simple harmless thing to try is Epsom salts for the magnesium which plays a part in chlorophyll functions. If there is a deficiency they will green up in a week.

is epsom salts just as good as a gardening-specific magnesium product? I'd love to use them (as I wouldn't even have to leave my house!) but would sooner get nursery-grade stuff *if* there's a difference (like, with human nutrition, the difference between magnesium oxide and magnesium citrate is huge)

Same and "if" Crystal wants to see blooms I put them out in full sun and hit them a few times with High P using GroTek. I only use light doses of 20-20-20 with Micros if they are shaded to promote vegetative growth as they do show much lighter leaf without it. They are shrubs after all

Grimmy

I may be misreading you but are you saying that when you're trying to promote vegetative growth on bougies you intentionally move them to shade? Is that to promote vegetative growth in the confines of shorter internodes? Besides that I can't understand why you'd move a bougie from the sun?

These the same trees you posted about earlier? The collected stuff you started pruning immediately as it started growing?

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/i...-touch-my-2mo-old-yamadoris-growth-but.27684/

Of the two bougies with this problem, one is from that pair of yamadori and one is not (and as far as 'immediately pruning' I didn't do the pruning yet not at the time of that thread but after they got longer and lignified at their bases I did), although that guy is from a pair of very similar large (1' wide stumps) bougies that both are same age/same spot/conditions, and got the same original growth and same first pruning once first flush had lignified bases, and the other one of the pair is doing just fine. The other bougie with this problem wasn't one that got hard-chopped or heavy pruning (although it was pretty heavily defoliated) - is this yellowing consistent with 'spent all my resources' stress? Am guessing that's why you asked in the 1st place and I definitely can't rule that out, though my other large bougie being fine made me think that wasn't the case, as well as having another bougie that I had to put through hell (had to sever most of its roots for it to ever get into a real bonsai pot), it sulked a short while but is now sporting a regular-green flush of growth.

 

[milehigh_7]

Different deficiencies cause different symptoms I'm learning. With your soil mix, I'm sure it's minerals or PH (which at the end of the day causes the same things).

 

[GrimLore]

I may be misreading you but are you saying that when you're trying to promote vegetative growth on bougies you intentionally move them to shade? Is that to promote vegetative growth in the confines of shorter internodes? Besides that I can't understand why you'd move a bougie from the sun?

Here, potted it works - the main plant we have been cutting back and promoting back budding on old wood for cuttings does exactly that. Many plants do actually. They do grow plenty of leaf in full sun but Bloom with little or no back budding. Never tried in ground as they would not survive Winter but from what I have researched with growers North and South it works on potted. I might add the plant I am talking about came from the South last year and does quite good as I type... I am getting detailed here as to explain the plant will do as you want by simply changing conditions a bit and in my case it is what works for my purpose. Down there landscapers call them "poke and kill you" while up here they ask "what the hell is that?"

Grimmy

 

[SU2]

So I went to take pics and now I've got a 3rd bougie showing signs and two hibiscus showing it too! Am starting to wonder if this isn't something that's normal this time of year (was basically just getting into bonsai this time last year)

Here's a close-up of the yellowing (this leaf is from the large yamadori that's effected, in the past days a couple more bougies started showing this but the other large yamadori isn't..



and here's (in the center-mass of foliage there's whole yellow areas) another bougie with it (recently defoliated)


and a third with it (this one got the worst attack by those worms, there's several visibly affected leaves in this shot:


Have been seeing a higher-than-usual amount of leaves get infected by those worms, they leave those waxy trails all over the leaf (apparently they're eating a tunnel through the inside of the leaf when making those), am starting to suspect they're related to the caterpillars/monarch butterflies that dominate my passiflora vine trellises...

Different deficiencies cause different symptoms I'm learning. With your soil mix, I'm sure it's minerals or PH (which at the end of the day causes the same things).

Yeah the substrate is inorganic and it kind of made sense to me that, after several months out-of-ground and in inorganic media, it was getting low on something (am sure I've exacerbated that with my interventions as well but if I can treat with mineral supplementation then still seems I come out fine) pH is probably fine since I use synthetic fertilizer salts which tend to make soil more acidic/lower pH which is good for bougies (within limits of course, but bougies are 'acid-liking')

Here, potted it works - the main plant we have been cutting back and promoting back budding on old wood for cuttings does exactly that. Many plants do actually. They do grow plenty of leaf in full sun but Bloom with little or no back budding. Never tried in ground as they would not survive Winter but from what I have researched with growers North and South it works on potted. I might add the plant I am talking about came from the South last year and does quite good as I type... I am getting detailed here as to explain the plant will do as you want by simply changing conditions a bit and in my case it is what works for my purpose. Down there landscapers call them "poke and kill you" while up here they ask "what the hell is that?"

Grimmy

TBH I'm a bit confused, I wasn't talking about containers (was assuming all bougies were potted in discussions re bonsai) but rather your commenting that you move it to the shade to promote vegetative growth, when it's a specie that loves full-sun.

 

[GrimLore]

TBH I'm a bit confused, I wasn't talking about containers (was assuming all bougies were potted in discussions re bonsai) but rather your commenting that you move it to the shade to promote vegetative growth, when it's a specie that loves full-sun.

Here it will have lighter leaf and bloom/bract a lot in full sun. The darker off color tips/ends on yours shows that may happen soon. It is the same with potted North or South according to many I know.
If I want them to back bud on old hardened off branches I move them to non Full Sun dappled East or West under large landscape trees where they behave with back budding and darker leaf.
When you mention them loving full sun that is correct especially if you are wanting a lot of Blooms. There they are allowed frequently to grow up the side of a building with a really nice show of color there and in other Southern locations. If you look inside you will find little or no leaf... Now that is great but in potted a fuller plant with both greens and flora is my goal so I adjust and train them to do as I want, not the shrub

Grimmy

 

[SU2]

Yellowing is getting worse, and now affects most of my bougies (including two of the three yamadori collected 10d ago), for some odd reason one of my two largest (1' wide) specimen hasn't succumbed so happy with that but am going to begin trying fe/mg+ supplementation and hopefully that's that!

Here it will have lighter leaf and bloom/bract a lot in full sun. The darker off color tips/ends on yours shows that may happen soon. It is the same with potted North or South according to many I know.
If I want them to back bud on old hardened off branches I move them to non Full Sun dappled East or West under large landscape trees where they behave with back budding and darker leaf.
When you mention them loving full sun that is correct especially if you are wanting a lot of Blooms. There they are allowed frequently to grow up the side of a building with a really nice show of color there and in other Southern locations. If you look inside you will find little or no leaf... Now that is great but in potted a fuller plant with both greens and flora is my goal so I adjust and train them to do as I want, not the shrub

Grimmy

Thanks for such a good&thorough explanation! Couple things I'm hoping to clarify- it sounds like you're saying you're getting significant back-budding without having removed growing tips? That'd make sense (as bougies seem to just throw buds everywhere sometimes!), am very happy to hear that since one of my large yamadori is a stumpy block and, instead of developing a main primary branch for it and trying to work taper, I'm planning to have a very tight canopy hugging the thing - this necessitates getting new shoots(budding) out of the bases of established shoots at points lower on the branch than where the first real node is (like, if pinching/ramification is a game of turning 2-->4, 4-->8 and so on, and I want a dense/short/tight canopy, that'd be impossible if I had to work from the nodes, the distance from collar to first-node on an established shoot can be quite long!

Also it sounds like you're saying full-sun is a trigger for blooming which is a bit different than I understood it - I'd read that, yes, full-sun is requisite but that letting it get drier, and stressing it, are the keys to forcing blooms. Wigerts' bougies get full defoliation ~2mo beforehand so they're blooming for a show, and I know I've read other 'bougie specialists' speak about defoliation being a primer for flowering. Re water, their typical blooming here in FL is strongest when it gets drier, and I've heard lots of sentiment re letting it get drier to initiate blooming, and (conversely), keeping watering heavy&consistent to stave-off flowering. So while full-sun is a constant in all forced-flowering approaches I know, there's more to it (at least here in semi-tropical FL!), though if you're getting positive results by letting the guy go into partial shade then obviously it's operating a bit different in your case! (Am hoping that came across right, was wanting to share what I know about flowering and hope it doesn't come across like debating your approach!)

I dislike the flowering most of the time (as I'm trying to develop my trees so flowering is just energy spent on stuff that's not foliage/vascular tissue that I get to keep, and it hardly/doesn't veg at all when flowering (which was ~8wks the last time one of mine went into flowering! Drove me nuts and I now cut the petiole of any shoot if I see it's developing bracts instead of leaves! Truly beautiful when flowering though, this is the guy that was stuck in this state for 2mo:

 

[GrimLore]

Couple things I'm hoping to clarify-

I am going to tag @ColinFraser for his input here - He is doing great with developing them in a far closer environment to yours and I feel he can be more detailed with help related to Southern growing. He is a good guy

Grimmy

 

[SU2]

Well, about 2.5wks from when I got minerals (iron + magnesium, as part of a gardening 'fertilizer' that was minerals-only ie no NPK) to today, and no real change in the yellowing... The plants are all growing real well and seem otherwise healthy (if not a bit too-quick to wilt on hot days, though we're breaking 90deg right now) but still this mild yellowing, part of me is starting to think it may be a consequence of 'pushing-growth' (being aggressive with fertilizer/sunlight - something tells me that if I relaxed them a bit, slowed their growth by reducing fert and moving them out of full-sun, that they'd darken-up....I don't know that that's the smart move though, as they're growing so well in terms of foliage-mass, that I'd almost think it smarter to leave them as they are until fall and let all this new growth harden-off then, will surely darken-up at that point)

 

[Starfox]

Are these all recently collected trees?