Bonsai snob...or just finally "getting" it

[Eric Group]

I am definitely becoming a Bonsai snob. Which is a good thing because I was a Bonsai Man-whore before! I am even becoming a snob about which trees I will "take the time" to look at on the Internet. The saddest thing about it all is- few of my trees make the cut!

 

[Vin]

I think you are missing my point. My point wasn't if someone wants something don't let it go. My point was if someone is evaluating your trees and tells you something is no good but then wants to buy it from you... They are lying to you to acquire it.

It was meant as a joke, not a statement of personal philosophy. But like all jokes that need to be explained, now it's doubly lame. Thanks.

Not so fast, I think you do make a very valid point. I donated 10 trees this year to our club auction. All 10 did very well which made me really think hard about my work. One of them, an Abelia chinensis did very well for a club fund raiser. I had worked on it for about a year and a half and felt I learned enough from it to pass it on. To my suprise it brought $75 and only one or two trees sold for more. There were four very interested bidders and the guy I wanted to have it won. My point is, in my opinion a good measure of how well you're doing is having someone with years of experience and very skilled in the art genuinely wanting something you've created.

 

[fourteener]

I am definitely becoming a Bonsai snob. Which is a good thing because I was a Bonsai Man-whore before! I am even becoming a snob about which trees I will "take the time" to look at on the Internet. The saddest thing about it all is- few of my trees make the cut!

When you are really learning out of a genuine interest in the hobby, you find that you learn things faster than you can do them to your trees. I think this is the point that you start looking for better things.

I used to think our club auction was a great place to find material. It was when I was new. Now I sell a lot of stuff and rarely see anything I want to acquire.

A growing dissatisfaction with your collection isn't all bad. It makes you push into another level of work and dedication.

 

[Giga]

It's just maturing in the hobby and your artistic eye. Be glad for it too! Some people do bonsai for 30 years- some do bonsai Year one, 30 times

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Discernment, a characteristic I hope to continue developing. I sell more trees than I buy or collect each year.
Pots are a different story.

I feel I became a pot snob right away.
I see an image in my head and that is the pot I want for that tree.
I don't usually buy pots unless I have a tree waiting to go in it. Of course some pots you just can't pass up.
I don't have the cash to be snobbery but my brain tells me I could be that person.

 

[Coach]

Interesting thread...yall are all much more versed in Bonsai and seem to all agree that "snobbery" is part of the bonsai artists evolution...I'm a rookie but nobody in early year 2 of the "sport" has commented so I will rep this one...I love looking for new trees to "start"...my budget pretty much puts me in the 1-1.5 inch trunk range ($50-$100)...so I look for good material that size and pick up 2-4 trees per year. I know that nebari, trunk interest, and taper are key but what I really look for in a purchase is "does this little pre-bonsai have the bones to one day look like a real tree that could exist in nature"...if it passes that test I give it a whirl. FWIW I'm 39 years old. To me that matters because I feel like I can buy a 1 inch trunk with solid bones now and grow and refine it for 8-12 years+ with no real anxiety. Honestly my anxiety comes from not getting smaller, affordable material now because what I don't start now won't be ready until even later.

It's also quite possible that I just have different Bonsai aspirations...I'm really not interested at all in participating in Bonsai exhibitions/shows/competitions...don't get me wrong, I coach High School football in Texas...they don't make 'em more competitive. But Bonsai for me is more of a personal challenge with myself and my ultimate goal is to create a beautiful bonsai garden in my backyard that has 10-20 species in it so that me, my family and my friends can view and enjoy it (mostly me, they don't "get it") especially before and after a looooong day at work.

I love learning from all of your high level bonsai scrutiny because yall are the bonsai "athletes" in the game...your eyes are razor sharp and your techniques and products are insanely inspiring...so I will post my progress every once in a while just to get a few personal tips but mostly I just soak up all I can from just about everyone who has commented on this thread.

So does this mean you can possibly do bonsai for a long time and never really become a "snob"?

Or that maybe what I just described is the exact flawed logic you are all speaking of and I will change as I get "older"?

 

[fourteener]

"Snob" is a pretty loaded term. Each person here might be defining it a little different. Arrogant, pompous, self-righteous, looking down on everyone kind of person or wise, discerning, ability to see further down the road than the non-snob. Or a mix of both.

Is snobbery part of the bonsai evolution is asked! The answer is that all of our perspectives change over time. The kind of person we become, proud/humble is part of the equation. The coach who becomes full of self after years of winning is different than the coach who discovers helping young people learn to do their very best in everything they do. One is a fascination with self, the other a fascination with serving others.

If snob means discerning, I would hope to become that. If snob means arrogant and self-righteous, I would hope that's not part of the trajectory. In any group both are possible and witnessed.

 

[Cadillactaste]

"Snob" is a pretty loaded term. Each person here might be defining it a little different. Arrogant, pompous, self-righteous, looking down on everyone kind of person or wise, discerning, ability to see further down the road than the non-snob. Or a mix of both.

Is snobbery part of the bonsai evolution is asked! The answer is that all of our perspectives change over time. The kind of person we become, proud/humble is part of the equation. The coach who becomes full of self after years of winning is different than the coach who discovers helping young people learn to do their very best in everything they do. One is a fascination with self, the other a fascination with serving others.

If snob means discerning, I would hope to become that. If snob means arrogant and self-righteous, I would hope that's not part of the trajectory. In any group both are possible and witnessed.

Discernment I reckon the better word for what I'm describing. You see Coach...I'm not judge mental of others trees...just my own. Because we are all on the ladder learning. Some further than others...we all start at the bottom and I would hope that with time as in all things...we fine tune ourselves and grow. Anyone who knows me...knows I am not
,nor do I ever try to put myself above another. It's not in me...and no amount of time with bonsai will change my inner me of who I am. But, I do challenge myself...to have material I can be proud of sitting on my table. Since I plan for a smaller size collection...I challenge myself to make sure each in their own right have character to draw me in and stand out amongst the other trees I own.

I'm 44 years young....and I as well have no desire to show my trees at this time. I am a good two hours from any group/club. So my learning comes from online sources and books. I have come to respect the knowledge of a few who I will go to directly to ask a specific question. My desire is to have a very small collection of trees...I always said between 20-25 trees as well. I'm not so much focused on having a ton of species. But ones that speak to me. With that last drought...I have thought to even shorten that number with the time that I exhaust in keeping my own landscape happy.

But to say I never made a bad choice in material...would be a lie. At the time...I was thrilled with the purchase. But, I've grown...and can see faults. Again, I have some nice landscape material out of the deal. And it's lessons learned so no real mistake if something was gleaned from it. So not a bad thing. The only person I judge is myself...to become better at discerning better quality bones in a tree. And good bones don't necessarily break the bank...if your willing to put some years into development of the apex and canopy. Bones rarely change...but can and have by mishaps can happen.

Example...I paid $82 for this shimpaku tree which included shipping. (Not bad I felt since I have always been drawn to mame twisted trunk trees.) I feel the bones were worth the price. I am willing to invest in growing it out and developing it further.


Now, my oops purchase. Night and day difference between the two materials... The bougainvillea as seen in the tree below. Holds a special meaning for me. It's a tree I first seen while on a missionary trip to a village we now are considered full time/part time missionaries through WGM. So at that time...any and ALL bougainvillea I found no flaws in. Because my emotions got the best of me. This is the tree now in my fairy garden...I had many concerned with those mess of roots tangled at the base of the tree. Sure now, one could chop it and attempt to grow new nebari. (Bougainvillea are known to root well) But, you see I had a mishap over last winter...losing all my bougainvillea cuttings. From a propane tank mishap when arctic temps rolled through. So I'm gun shy to attempt to do this. So it's going to be in my fairy garden where I can enjoy it for the bougainvillea it is...without being judge mental of the roots as the huge flaw they are. Because the stuff in the pot camouflage the hot mess. It also is a reminder of who I was...and how far I came so I honestly don't mind it. I still am drawn to the bougainvillea...but, I have reigned in my emotions to try and see the tree for its potential.

My trees are far from finished...or grand. But, to me each has a bit of character. The bones of the tree is the character that sits on my bench so to speak. Refinement along with the journey keeps them there. This post was to also be for those on their earlier stages of bonsai...to see that when they grow into refinement...that they see that nothing was a mistake. Just a learning curve so to speak. When something is learned...there is no real mistake in that. That is my stand...and if ones can see that. They will find even in disappointment...they gleaned something valuable. (With say the loss of a tree. If one learns why it died...it was a lesson learned. So not a total waist...when knowledge is gained)

 

[Coach]

Thank you very much for this response. It is extremely thoughtful and well put...been thinking about it for days...really really appreciate it fourteener

"Snob" is a pretty loaded term. Each person here might be defining it a little different. Arrogant, pompous, self-righteous, looking down on everyone kind of person or wise, discerning, ability to see further down the road than the non-snob. Or a mix of both.

Is snobbery part of the bonsai evolution is asked! The answer is that all of our perspectives change over time. The kind of person we become, proud/humble is part of the equation. The coach who becomes full of self after years of winning is different than the coach who discovers helping young people learn to do their very best in everything they do. One is a fascination with self, the other a fascination with serving others.

If snob means discerning, I would hope to become that. If snob means arrogant and self-righteous, I would hope that's not part of the trajectory. In any group both are possible and witnessed.

 

[Coach]

Thank you for taking the time to describe the educational path of the bonsai artist and sharing specific examples of yours...really cool...I especially appreciate the wisdom regarding the value of "mistakes"...it's obvious that you have a wonderful attitude...thank you for the lesson

Discernment I reckon the better word for what I'm describing. You see Coach...I'm not judge mental of others trees...just my own. Because we are all on the ladder learning. Some further than others...we all start at the bottom and I would hope that with time as in all things...we fine tune ourselves and grow. Anyone who knows me...knows I am not
,nor do I ever try to put myself above another. It's not in me...and no amount of time with bonsai will change my inner me of who I am. But, I do challenge myself...to have material I can be proud of sitting on my table. Since I plan for a smaller size collection...I challenge myself to make sure each in their own right have character to draw me in and stand out amongst the other trees I own.

I'm 44 years young....and I as well have no desire to show my trees at this time. I am a good two hours from any group/club. So my learning comes from online sources and books. I have come to respect the knowledge of a few who I will go to directly to ask a specific question. My desire is to have a very small collection of trees...I always said between 20-25 trees as well. I'm not so much focused on having a ton of species. But ones that speak to me. With that last drought...I have thought to even shorten that number with the time that I exhaust in keeping my own landscape happy.

But to say I never made a bad choice in material...would be a lie. At the time...I was thrilled with the purchase. But, I've grown...and can see faults. Again, I have some nice landscape material out of the deal. And it's lessons learned so no real mistake if something was gleaned from it. So not a bad thing. The only person I judge is myself...to become better at discerning better quality bones in a tree. And good bones don't necessarily break the bank...if your willing to put some years into development of the apex and canopy. Bones rarely change...but can and have by mishaps can happen.

Example...I paid $82 for this shimpaku tree which included shipping. (Not bad I felt since I have always been drawn to mame twisted trunk trees.) I feel the bones were worth the price. I am willing to invest in growing it out and developing it further.
View attachment 81686

Now, my oops purchase. Night and day difference between the two materials... The bougainvillea as seen in the tree below. Holds a special meaning for me. It's a tree I first seen while on a missionary trip to a village we now are considered full time/part time missionaries through WGM. So at that time...any and ALL bougainvillea I found no flaws in. Because my emotions got the best of me. This is the tree now in my fairy garden...I had many concerned with those mess of roots tangled at the base of the tree. Sure now, one could chop it and attempt to grow new nebari. (Bougainvillea are known to root well) But, you see I had a mishap over last winter...losing all my bougainvillea cuttings. From a propane tank mishap when arctic temps rolled through. So I'm gun shy to attempt to do this. So it's going to be in my fairy garden where I can enjoy it for the bougainvillea it is...without being judge mental of the roots as the huge flaw they are. Because the stuff in the pot camouflage the hot mess. It also is a reminder of who I was...and how far I came so I honestly don't mind it. I still am drawn to the bougainvillea...but, I have reigned in my emotions to try and see the tree for its potential. View attachment 81687

My trees are far from finished...or grand. But, to me each has a bit of character. The bones of the tree is the character that sits on my bench so to speak. Refinement along with the journey keeps them there. This post was to also be for those on their earlier stages of bonsai...to see that when they grow into refinement...that they see that nothing was a mistake. Just a learning curve so to speak. When something is learned...there is no real mistake in that. That is my stand...and if ones can see that. They will find even in disappointment...they gleaned something valuable. (With say the loss of a tree. If one learns why it died...it was a lesson learned. So not a total waist...when knowledge is gained)
View attachment 81688

 

[Adair M]

Coach:

You said earlier that you had no interest in showing your trees, it's just for your enjoyment.

I think it is a good idea to enter trees in a show. Oh, not for the ribbons, and not out of "competitiveness", it forces you to do things that perhaps you wouldn't do without the "pressure" of preparing the tree for u the show.

For example: you may decide to change to a better pot. Or clean and oil the one it's in. Maybe you treat pests a little more aggressively. Or remove bug-eaten leaves. Or trim overly long growth, or wire the little twigs. (It's really easy to just do the main branches and justify to ourselves that there's no need to detail wire every twig "since we're not showing it").

But, once you do all those little things to prepare the tree for the show, and you see how much better it looks, then you think you should do similiar things to all your trees.

And, guess what? Your trees improve. You improve your skills.

And isn't that what this is all about?

 

[ColinFraser]

Coach:

You said earlier that you had no interest in showing your trees, it's just for your enjoyment.

I think it is a good idea to enter trees in a show. Oh, not for the ribbons, and not out of "competitiveness", it forces you to do things that perhaps you wouldn't do without the "pressure" of preparing the tree for u the show.

For example: you may decide to change to a better pot. Or clean and oil the one it's in. Maybe you treat pests a little more aggressively. Or remove bug-eaten leaves. Or trim overly long growth, or wire the little twigs. (It's really easy to just do the main branches and justify to ourselves that there's no need to detail wire every twig "since we're not showing it").

But, once you do all those little things to prepare the tree for the show, and you see how much better it looks, then you think you should do similiar things to all your trees.

And, guess what? Your trees improve. You improve your skills.

And isn't that what this is all about?

This is like athletes signing up for a race or a tournament - it's mostly not about winning (though that's nice), but about motivation. Ask any runner what happened to their training regimen after they signed up for a marathon

 

[Random Usr]

I think it's just the growth that comes with having ones feet wet a bit longer. You can differentiate better quality than once before. Before...I seen potential in just about anything one could bonsai. Now, I for myself crinkle my nose and think...not worth my time.

I was pondering the other day...am I becoming a bonsai snob!?!

Then I think...Have I not heard from the beginning...nebari,trunk movement, and taper. Maybe it's not being a snob...but, realizing that I just finally grasp what the guidelines are...and why they are in place. Maybe I want to see character and such in a tree that it makes you still love a tree while its years being worked into a proper bonsai. The bones are so amazing that it just makes you burst with anticipation of the development stages. And pride in the stock you have on your table.

I have a few in my earlier stages of bonsai that will end up landscape...did I make a mistake back then in my choices? I would like to think I didn't. I think the mistake now, is to waist my time on material that would make better landscape material. I don't see it as a failure on my part for the purchase...because if we're learning and moving on from mistakes then it's a crucial rung on a ladder so to speak...just as important when we lose a tree...to learn from it. Then even a loss isn't quite looked upon as failure...but lessons in us growing...as our hobby and knowledge grows.

Enjoy the journey...have no regrets...there are no regrets as long as a lesson is learned along the way.

In the beginning you are easily pleased. Leaf size, nebari, movement … who cares? It's in a pot and you've managed to keep it alive. Then you purchase a colourful book of bonsai and you see the beauty in ”professional” trees - so you tinker a bit longer with yours, but you're still proud of your accomplishments. Then you make the mistake of joining a bonsai forum ..... and your goose is cooked.

Now you want to please others … rather than yourself.

 

[Cadillactaste]

In the beginning you are easily pleased. Leaf size, nebari, movement … who cares? It's in a pot and you've managed to keep it alive. Then you purchase a colourful book of bonsai and you see the beauty in ”professional” trees - so you tinker a bit longer with yours, but you're still proud of your accomplishments. Then you make the mistake of joining a bonsai forum ..... and your goose is cooked.

Now you want to please others … rather than yourself.

I can't say that I ever meant to please someone with my bonsai other than myself. My hobby has not been about anything but to bring myself pleasure.(Even when I justified the uglier than sin mess of hot roots knowing ones wouldn't like it. I've always been one roll to the beat of my own drum.)

Lol love the stirring the pot emotion. Lol

 

[sorce]

Now you want to please others … rather than yourself

True, well, I tried real hard to keep the Yup Nana alive to please you all next year too! So far so good!

I'm going to get a sixer for lunch.
Now, that is pleasing myself!

Sorce

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Discernment I reckon the better word for what I'm describing. You see Coach...I'm not judge mental of others trees...just my own. Because we are all on the ladder learning. Some further than others...we all start at the bottom and I would hope that with time as in all things...we fine tune ourselves and grow. Anyone who knows me...knows I am not
,nor do I ever try to put myself above another. It's not in me...and no amount of time with bonsai will change my inner me of who I am. But, I do challenge myself...to have material I can be proud of sitting on my table. Since I plan for a smaller size collection...I challenge myself to make sure each in their own right have character to draw me in and stand out amongst the other trees I own.

I'm 44 years young....and I as well have no desire to show my trees at this time. I am a good two hours from any group/club. So my learning comes from online sources and books. I have come to respect the knowledge of a few who I will go to directly to ask a specific question. My desire is to have a very small collection of trees...I always said between 20-25 trees as well. I'm not so much focused on having a ton of species. But ones that speak to me. With that last drought...I have thought to even shorten that number with the time that I exhaust in keeping my own landscape happy.

But to say I never made a bad choice in material...would be a lie. At the time...I was thrilled with the purchase. But, I've grown...and can see faults. Again, I have some nice landscape material out of the deal. And it's lessons learned so no real mistake if something was gleaned from it. So not a bad thing. The only person I judge is myself...to become better at discerning better quality bones in a tree. And good bones don't necessarily break the bank...if your willing to put some years into development of the apex and canopy. Bones rarely change...but can and have by mishaps can happen.

Example...I paid $82 for this shimpaku tree which included shipping. (Not bad I felt since I have always been drawn to mame twisted trunk trees.) I feel the bones were worth the price. I am willing to invest in growing it out and developing it further.
View attachment 81686

Now, my oops purchase. Night and day difference between the two materials... The bougainvillea as seen in the tree below. Holds a special meaning for me. It's a tree I first seen while on a missionary trip to a village we now are considered full time/part time missionaries through WGM. So at that time...any and ALL bougainvillea I found no flaws in. Because my emotions got the best of me. This is the tree now in my fairy garden...I had many concerned with those mess of roots tangled at the base of the tree. Sure now, one could chop it and attempt to grow new nebari. (Bougainvillea are known to root well) But, you see I had a mishap over last winter...losing all my bougainvillea cuttings. From a propane tank mishap when arctic temps rolled through. So I'm gun shy to attempt to do this. So it's going to be in my fairy garden where I can enjoy it for the bougainvillea it is...without being judge mental of the roots as the huge flaw they are. Because the stuff in the pot camouflage the hot mess. It also is a reminder of who I was...and how far I came so I honestly don't mind it. I still am drawn to the bougainvillea...but, I have reigned in my emotions to try and see the tree for its potential. View attachment 81687

My trees are far from finished...or grand. But, to me each has a bit of character. The bones of the tree is the character that sits on my bench so to speak. Refinement along with the journey keeps them there. This post was to also be for those on their earlier stages of bonsai...to see that when they grow into refinement...that they see that nothing was a mistake. Just a learning curve so to speak. When something is learned...there is no real mistake in that. That is my stand...and if ones can see that. They will find even in disappointment...they gleaned something valuable. (With say the loss of a tree. If one learns why it died...it was a lesson learned. So not a total waist...when knowledge is gained)
View attachment 81688

I am also 44 years old. I have about 20-25 trees. I have 3 good ones and the rest are basically starters, experiments and projects. I think over time I will have to narrow it down to about the best 8-10 and only keep those. That's just the indoor stuff.
I don't baby the outside trees at all. They take less effort. I may try some more of that.

 

[Random Usr]

I am also 44 years old. I have about 20-25 trees. I have 3 good ones and the rest are basically starters, experiments and projects. I think over time I will have to narrow it down to about the best 8-10 and only keep those. That's just the indoor stuff.
I don't baby the outside trees at all. They take less effort. I may try some more of that.

We're on the same road and I think I see you in the fog ........ there just ahead of me. I'll flash my lights now and you can tell me if you see me.