Bonsai forums a bad thing?

[shohin kid]

Hello all,

I haven't visited this forum in quite some time, I've been busy finishing up my undergraduate degree and any time that I've had for bonsai during went directly to working on my trees.

I've wanted to make a post like this for a while, and although what I'm about to suggest might really stir-up some fired discussion, I wanted to ask this question:

Are bonsai forums a bad thing? Here are my thoughts. People can be rude and give bad advice on tree care and styling. How can you give someone advice on styling when you can't see the tree in person? Bonsai is an art form that must be done in person. We can learn lots of things from books and professional bonsai blogs, but putting it into practice is a whole different story. How many people spend more time on forums than actually working on their trees? Do your trees that have weeds growing in them? Do you have trees that need to be wired (if it's the right time of year for that)? Do your trees need to be thinned out, pruned, or cut back (again, if it's the right time of year for that)? If the answer is yes to any of these, you probably need to get off the forum until the answer becomes no.

Now I think there can be some pros to forums. People can be encouraging and helpful. People can share interesting things that they are doing and others can gain inspiration. Forums can create a sort of community for people, especially people who don't have a bonsai club in their area. However, bonsai is a physical hobby, and should mostly be practiced as one. I'm studying as a classical musician, and just like in my art-form, you really need to be studying with people (in person) who know what they are doing if you want to be successful.

Time for me to go wire some trees!

 

[Nybonsai12]

Not sure i understand the point of your post. You come to a bonsai forum to suggest that bonsai forums are bad?


I agree with the last part of your post. If you want to improve faster you need to study with higher skilled people in person. However i have learned a great deal from the many good folks here at bnut. They have def brought my skills/knowledge a long way from where I started.

 

[Lazylightningny]

This forum had greatly accelerated the learning curve for me. There are a great many accomplished artists who freely contribute their knowledge. You just have to be able to ignore the peanut gallery at times.

 

[GrimLore]

First I agree hands on in person is best BUT - If you consider the number of people here from different zones and levels of expertise you should be broad minded enough and smart enough to find most any information on the subject here. Some may be bad or not apply to your zone but being able to "sort out" applicable information is also needed "in person". Nobody here can know your level of expertise and things like your substrate, zone, water and fertilizer habits unless you provide the information... In other words what you put in will often portray what you get out of it... Being an Artist I suspect you already know that and Welcome to B-Nut

Grimmy

 

[berobinson82]

Do you have trees that need to be wired (if it's the right time of year for that)? Do your trees need to be thinned out, pruned, or cut back (again, if it's the right time of year for that)? If the answer is yes to any of these, you probably need to get off the forum until the answer becomes no.


Time for me to go wire some trees!

So you're on a forum, bitching about people spending THEIR time on a forum, suggesting people with trees that need wire get off the forum...

Go back to your hole.

 

[coh]

How can you give someone advice on styling when you can't see the tree in person? Bonsai is an art form that must be done in person.

True but only to a point. A good photograph of a tree can often help reveal flaws or weak points that we've stopped seeing with our eyes. Plus you can use software to do virtuals and manipulations. There are some members here who are very good at this. So...it is very possible to get good styling ideas from forums. That said...what often cannot be seen, regardless of how many photos are posted, is the detailed 3-d structure, exactly where branches originate...so it may not be feasible to implement the styling suggestions.

Bottom line...like most things in life, there are pros and cons. If you find the time you spend on the forums is not worthwhile, that there are too many negatives, too much bad information, that it takes time away from actually working on your trees...then just stop participating. Simple as that.

 

[barrosinc]

Who says I have to have my trees with me when I am on this forum?

I log on at some times during the day at work. Do you want me to bring my trees to work?

 

[MACH5]

Depends on who you ask. I never had much of a real teacher. All I have learned thus far has been mostly through books, you tube and forums like this one. So I would say yes they can be valuable if you can use the information properly.

I would agree that offering comments based on photos is far from ideal. However, it can often set someone in the right direction with their tree. Sort of design broad strokes. I think matters of high refinement and such can only be done when you're physically in front of the tree.

 

[jeanluc83]

It seems that this is thread is really about two different topics. Bonsai is a hands-on hobby so; one “shut up and do bonsai instead of talking about it” and two “you need to learn bonsai from someone in person”.

While I agree with both I think there is a definite place for forums. In the words of Yogi Berra “bonsai is 90% horticulture the other half is art”. A good horticulture knowledge base is needed so you know what questions to ask. This means doing your homework. Forums are a great place to ask questions when you come across something that you don’t know. True the art part is best learned in person. Bonsai look very different in person than in a picture. There are many things that cannot be translated from 3d to 2d. But we can’t have a bonsai master at our beacon call 24-7. Forums offer a good way to get quick feedback and advice.

 

[Vance Wood]

This forum had greatly accelerated the learning curve for me. There are a great many accomplished artists who freely contribute their knowledge. You just have to be able to ignore the peanut gallery at times.

It has greatly accelerated the learning curve for a lot of people who have jumped levels because they did not have to do a lot of the stuff some of us old farts hard to learn the hard way. We had to learn stuff the Japanese did not want to teach us.

To the OP: Who the hell do you think you are? You go away to school, but claim you have maintained a bonsai collection,. and now that you are out of school you think you are qualified to criticize this forum? I would bet you have not been doing bonsai for more than five years and for the most part have only taken a couple of trees through a potting cycle. And (I know started with a preposition, wait till I give you a shot at double affirmative) if you think the INTERNET is such a bad way to learn bonsai where did you pick up your knowledge? Here it comes: Do you have a more-better way? Been dyeing to say that.

How about posting some pictures of your trees. Pictures speak louder than words and don't smell as bad as BS.

 

[Vance Wood]

It has greatly accelerated the learning curve for a lot of people who have jumped levels because they did not have to do a lot of the stuff some of us old farts hard to learn the hard way. We had to learn stuff the Japanese did not want to teach us.

To the OP: Who the hell do you think you are? You go away to school, but claim you have maintained a bonsai collection,. and now that you are out of school you think you are qualified to criticize this forum? I would bet you have not been doing bonsai for more than five years and for the most part have only taken a couple of trees through a potting cycle. And (I know started with a preposition, wait till I give you a shot at double affirmative) if you think the INTERNET is such a bad way to learn bonsai where did you pick up your knowledge? Here it comes: Do you have a more-better way? Been dyeing to say that.

How about posting some pictures of your trees. Pictures speak louder than words and don't smell as bad as BS.

At best I would bet you might be taking classes with a teacher out West that has you so pumped up that you believe you can walk on water. However; most of whom you have followed have foundered and drown in their own hubris.

Got news for you: It seems to be those who make the loudest noise and boast the largest claims, that crash and burn and disappear without a trace. Once they discover that believing they can do something does not put the Cadillac in the drive way and masterpiece bonsai on the benches, and they don't really have a clue as where to start; they just walk away.

While I'm still steamed: My Granddaughter just graduated from University and she does not demonstarte the kind of thinking you have put forth here. OH____she knows a lot about bonsai too.

 

[edprocoat]

Was it your undergraduate degree that enlightened you on the mores of internet forums and Bonsai? It helped you to realize that, as in any thing you do in life, you only reap what you sow. I was lucky enough to figure that one out alone.

ed

 

[horibonsai]

Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Believe everything you read on the internet.

 

[shohin kid]

Hello all,

I didn't create this thread to attack, just to create a thought provoking discussion. My apologies if it came across the wrong way. That being said, it's a little concerning how many people had hurtful things to say on this thread. I'm just trying to start a positive and healthy discussion.

I would bet you have not been doing bonsai for more than five years and for the most part have only taken a couple of trees through a potting cycle. Where did you pick up your knowledge? How about posting some pictures of your trees.

Vance,

My father and I both got into bonsai about 7 years ago. We're both active in the Bonsai Society of Greater St. Louis Club and are in a study group with Michael Hagedorn that meets 3 times a year. I've personally learned mostly from Dave Kreutz by going out and working on his trees for too many days to possibly count.

Here's a quick picture of some of our benches:

 

[dick benbow]

Like bonsai, where a tree needs to have been cultivated for a number of decades to qualify,
folks to be accepted need to follow a similar path.
Unlike face to face conversations, hobby threads seem to take on a different attitude and can lend themselves to less than hospitable situations. Knowledge learned on such chatlines can be helpful but are no substitute for years of dedication alone in the trenches.
Recently I left my second koi Hobby chatline because of the way I was treated after years of experience (35) and years of educating others on numerous lines. So I can't say exactly what it is about a chatline but I often feel folks don't think they have to be civil.
If I've learned anything, I'd have to say my advice would go back to an olde saying regarding why the creator gave us one mouth and two ears and eyes.
I try to share here when I can help but do more reading then replying Chatlines are but a tool and Certainly not the end-all, be-all. I must confess that I have met some pretty good people here whom I consider friends. And for that, it makes it all worthwhile for that reason.

 

[shohin kid]

you believe you can walk on water.

I never said that, I am a student of bonsai just like everyone else.

 

[GrimLore]

I did not take it as a threat or provocative and in addition Welcomed you to B-Nut You are smart enough to make good use many years of experience of MANY great members. Enjoy!

Grimmy

 

[jk_lewis]

There are no absolutes. You get what you want from a forum. If you want to be snarky, there's always someone to snark right back at you. If you ask INTELLIGENT questions (you would be surprised at how many don't), you will get answers that are good, bad, or indifferent. It is up to you which you choose, and heaven help your trees if you pick wrong.

I have very little patience with those who have been working on trees for just a few years (or even less) who always give terrible answers to a well-put question -- and its worth even less when they blythly tall the original poster, "But I'm a newbie, so I might be wrong." If you don't KNOW the answer, shaddup! Personally, I think most folks who have been doing bonsai for 5 years or less should keep a plug in their mouth and just read and learn. But that will never happen.

Some rules on working with forums:

Ignore all advice given about pesticide application; you may kill your trees, family and pets. READ THE EFFING LABEL and follow the directions.

Ditto (to a point) on fertilizer advice when brand names are noted. Trees need NPK and trace elements and don't give a damn how it arrives. Otherwise, just memorize http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/fertiliz.htm and move on.

Advice on styling is just that: advice. It is one person's opinion, and as such is not wrong for him or her, but it may be wrong for you or your tree.

People are very free with this advice on other people's trees -- especially, it seems, if the advice points you to something that is potentially destructive -- like chopping or air layering at the drop of a hat.

Don't ever TRY to give styling advice on a tree that is shown with just one picture. NEVER give advice to someone who is stupid enough to post a sideways picture but doesn't go back in to edit and correct it. Posting photos here is NOT higher level physics.

My advice applies to my own posts (including this one) as well. It's not MY job to tell others how to behave or think (if they do), so I don't necessarily expect others to follow my advice, either -- though they should.

 

[barrosinc]

Time for me to go wire some trees!

so what are you doing here still? (see what I did there... you are no different than us)

 

[Deleted member 17587]

This is just an internet problem in general and not specific to Bonsai. There is too much information out there and a lot of it is not solid info from a good source. This forum is no exception. As a person seeking info from any format, you have to use your best judgement and common sense to make a determination about the advice you've been given. Application is another thing all together. Bonsai is no different than working on bikes or cars. You can get advice from forums but you still have to do the hands on application of it. As a noob, I've posted here a few times and received many varying responses. I have to assess the advice I'm given and determine which I think is the best for me to take. I've posted pics so they can see the tree and get an idea of what I'm working with. So they are not here in person but they can still see the material. Sometimes I don't even need help. I just want to talk with people who know more than me. Sometimes I get responses that are condescending and not so nice, but I've had the same result with people in the real world. Some people just suck everywhere. Masters are often known for treating their pupils like dogs. Just listen to Ryan Neil talk about his master referring to him as a work dog.

So, thanks to everyone here who have helped me. I find this to be a valuable source and I appreciate the positive help I've received thus far.