Bonsai Focus "Reminder"

[JasonG]

Is it safe to assume the only bits which aren't a waste of time are yours?

I'm not sure that's a safe assumption, so I thought I would ask.

I'm sure I'll regret being less than gracious, but the presumptive judgement that we have wasted our time, was also less than wise. So I am joining you in a momentary lack of wisdom. The very nature of a forum is open discussion. I now know more than I did before the discussion started, on a great many levels... not the least of which is reading something posted by Walter that managed to impress me (not that it matters, but it was a welcome surprise)... I wouldn't have traded that opportunity for anything.

However, I applaud the idea of moving on to tree work. I keep looking out the window and wanting to play, but it's been so darn cold, we're just finally getting to some reasonable sort of weather after a rediculous cold snap. So I look forward to being able to do some of that myself.

Kindest regards despite my lack of wisdom,

Victrinia

LOL!!

Ok, let me clarify something for ya, I don't think the original thread was useless. You had a concern and aired it here all of which is fine and the proper place to do so. What I meant as a waste of time was the constant bickering about how they are rude and "unAmerican" with business practices., etc.. Everything that answered your questions was posted on the first page, that is what I was getting at. Sorry if I offended ya, maybe I should have used better wording.

We won't talk lack of wisdom...

 

[JasonG]

Then why do they have adds on this forum and elsewhere? I would call that soliciting.

THey have adds on this forum because BonsaiNUT has added them here, not because BF came knocking. Its the same reason they have an ad on my blog, I get paid when someone subscribes from that link on my blog. Plain and simple, that is why you see them here.

So, is every ad you see when you drive down the road (signs, store fronts, etc) soliciters?? Advertising is not soliciting.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Then why do they have adds on this forum and elsewhere? I would call that soliciting.

The ad on this site is my own doing. (1) I think it is a good magazine and (2) I get some money if someone uses the link to subscribe. As far as I can tell, no one has, because I haven't gotten any money

In my real life I work in the consumer products industry here in the U.S. We always followed the mantra that a happy customer tells one person about their experience, while an unhappy customer tells ten. We would always try to make EVERYONE happy - because we thought it was good business.

For the most part, I think business people here in the U.S. are pretty friendly. The only place that blows me away for customer service is Japan. Even the McDonald's in Japan are amazing - sparkling clean, everyone smiling, your food carefully arranged on the tray so every tray is perfect, all logos and packages facing the customer. Walk into an electronics store in Japan and people are all smiling, bowing, welcoming. It was a little disconcerting.

When I lived in Europe, I had mixed experiences. However I think it is similar to the U.S. in that there are good restaurants, and bad ones; good companies, and bad ones. I never had a problem in the smaller local towns. I didn't seem to have as good an experience in larger towns - especially Paris, Frankfurt, Belgium.

Don't get me started about East Germany in '85. My experience mirrored Walter's - nothing to buy, horrid service, and people that seemed to take pleasure in being rude. One day I went to a party there for friends, and I stopped in the train station store to buy a bottle of wine. Each time you came into East Berlin you had to exchange some money into East German currency, and you weren't allowed to leave the country with it, so you had to spend it all whether you wanted to or not. The wine in the store was comparatively low quality, and since I wanted a nice gift for the party hosts I bought the most expensive bottle of wine in the store (they only had one). I think it might have cost $15(?). I had to stand and listen to the woman berate me as she was ringing me up - greedy Americans, young kids don't understand the value of money, stupid drunk going to go drink wine in the park, etc. It was amazing. I almost didn't want to give the bottle of wine to my friends - I was afraid it might have been poisoned How long do you think that store stayed in business when the Wall came down?

I think polite business knows no boundaries. In the worst case, you wildly exceed someone's expectations.

 

[mcpesq817]

THey have adds on this forum because BonsaiNUT has added them here, not because BF came knocking. Its the same reason they have an ad on my blog, I get paid when someone subscribes from that link on my blog. Plain and simple, that is why you see them here.

So, is every ad you see when you drive down the road (signs, store fronts, etc) soliciters?? Advertising is not soliciting.

I'm not sure I follow - how is an ad that seeks to sell a product or a service not a solicitation for potential customers? Sure the ad sponsor pays the billboard owner rental for the space, but the point is that they do so to get their product or service out there to get customers.

Coca-Cola pays Fox for a 30 second commercial to be aired during the Super Bowl - why do they do that? To keep brand recognition up, and attract new customers to their product.

 

[R_F]

THey have adds on this forum because BonsaiNUT has added them here, not because BF came knocking. Its the same reason they have an ad on my blog, I get paid when someone subscribes from that link on my blog. Plain and simple, that is why you see them here.

So, is every ad you see when you drive down the road (signs, store fronts, etc) soliciters?? Advertising is not soliciting.

I know how it works. And yes advertising IS soliciting business. You placing their add on your blog is no different from the commercials that are run on tv. Both are placed there by the owner and the owners are paid by the company that produces the add.

 

[R_F]

The ad on this site is my own doing. (1) I think it is a good magazine and (2) I get some money if someone uses the link to subscribe. As far as I can tell, no one has, because I haven't gotten any money

I've looked into it...you have to have a certain amount of clicks before you get paid...but you probably already knew that

 

[Attila Soos]

Um, comparing Cold-war communist east Germany and Hungary to today's market is a bit of a stretch to say the least.

I don't think Walter posted his experience to suggest that we lower the bar, or that we should compare today's markets with those days. The point was that sometimes it is better to change our expectations, and things turn out for the best for everybody.

Our expectations depend on the availability of alternative solutions. If there are a hundred restaurants in town, then we can afford to be picky and expect the best service, since we have so many choices. If there is only one restaurant, then we either accept what they give us, or we go home and learn how to cook.

In the case of Bonsai Focus, I am interested in what's going on in the European bonsai scene, so I subscribe to it. Regarding the American scene, I have a few magazine choices, but not much when it comes to Europe. So I have no expectations whatsoever, regarding their behavior or style. As far as I am concerned, they could bring it to me in a golden case, surrounded by seventeen virgins, or throw it over my fence, wrapped in dirty newspaper. It makes no difference to me, as long as I get my magazine in one piece.

May be because I am like Walter, traveled and lived in many places, many continents, and adjust my expectation according to the local customs. I am not here to change the world. Just give me what I paid for. I am not paying for good manners. I am paying for a magazine.

 

[Attila Soos]

By the way, when I say that I don't care abut their manners, I am not saying that I disagree with those who say that being polite is best for business.

But I am not in the business of teaching others how to improve their manners, so I don't care how they run their affairs. I would care very much if I was their boss, or the owner of the business.

 

[mcpesq817]

By the way, when I say that I don't care abut their manners, I am not saying that I disagree with those who say that being polite is best for business.

But I am not in the business of teaching others how to improve their manners, so I don't care how they run their affairs. I would care very much if I was their boss, or the owner of the business.

I see where you are coming from Attila, but if there was a competitor magazine with equal content for equal cost that you felt offered better customer service (or at least that wasn't insulting to you), I would think that you would jump ship to the other magazine.

 

[greerhw]

By the way, when I say that I don't care abut their manners, I am not saying that I disagree with those who say that being polite is best for business.

But I am not in the business of teaching others how to improve their manners, so I don't care how they run their affairs. I would care very much if I was their boss, or the owner of the business.

I was replying to Walter's post, I don't give a flip about the magazine, I don't subscribe.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Attila Soos]

I see where you are coming from Attila, but if there was a competitor magazine with equal content for equal cost that you felt offered better customer service (or at least that wasn't insulting to you), I would think that you would jump ship to the other magazine.

Absolutely I would jump ship to the better service.
As I said before, it all depends on the available alternatives. If there was an alternative magazine, with good customer service, I would see that as a bonus above and beyond what I paid for, and gladly accept it. But I don't really expect it, if it's not available. When I subscribed to the magazine, it didn't come with a contract saying that customer service is included. I like to be fair, and strictly expect what I paid for, not a thing more.

On the other hand, when I bought my new truck, it came with a customer service contract. So I expect nothing less, but a great service from Toyota. Again: what I paid for, and I would raise hell if I didn't get my money's worth.

 

[mcpesq817]

Absolutely I would jump ship to the better service.
As I said before, it all depends on the available alternatives. If there was an alternative magazine, with good customer service, I would see that as a bonus above and beyond what I paid for, and gladly accept it. But I don't really expect it, if it's not available. When I subscribed to the magazine, it didn't come with a contract saying that customer service is included. I like to be fair, and strictly expect what I paid for, not a thing more.

On the other hand, when I bought my new truck, it came with a customer service contract. So I expect nothing less, but a great service from Toyota. Again: what I paid for.

I think this is what might rub people the wrong way - the fact that there might not be perceived viable alternative options out there, so that customers are feeling like they are being taken for granted and the publisher believes he/she can treat them however he/she wants.

Sorta like cable service - Comcast had a monopoly in my neighborhood and had absolutely horrid customer service. When FIOS arrived, I switched, and Comcast tried all they could to keep me as a customer.

Same with Microsoft - for many years people have been putting up with a horrible Windows product and other products lacking in innovation that more than made up for that in terms of plenty of poor performance. Now with Apple, Linux, cloud computing, etc. seen as viable alternatives, Microsoft's core business is being attacked and they are finally doing their damnedest to improve the perception of their product and customer service to retain fleeing customers.

 

[Attila Soos]

I think this is what might rub people the wrong way - the fact that there might not be perceived viable alternative options out there, so that customers are feeling like they are being taken for granted and the publisher believes he/she can treat them however he/she wants.

Sorta like cable service - Comcast had a monopoly in my neighborhood and had absolutely horrid customer service. When FIOS arrived, I switched, and Comcast tried all they could to keep me as a customer.

Same with Microsoft - for many years people have been putting up with a horrible Windows product and other products lacking in innovation that more than made up for that in terms of plenty of poor performance. Now with Apple, Linux, cloud computing, etc. seen as viable alternatives, Microsoft's core business is being attacked and they are finally doing their damnedest to improve the perception of their product and customer service to retain fleeing customers.

Exactly. A business will ony go the extra mile if it has to. As soon as a better business comes along, the original one will lose customers. So, it will be forced to change and improve.

There is no point for us to get offended, it will only give us ulcer. Either we get our expectation straight, or cancel our subscription. Everything else is a waste of time.

PS.: If BF has such a poor customer service, it's so much better for the competition! May be this opens the room for a new publication with great customer service and a different vision. Nothing wrong with that. How about a bonsai magazine of the future, that can take care of all your personal bonsai needs: offers advice on how to improve your raw stock, consults you on what tools you need, sends you references, advice on designing your trees,....THE WHOLE SHEBANG. Instead of $50 a year, it will cost you $50 per month, but you will get all the pampering you need. You will be able to select the tone of voice you like, on the telephone: a pleasant female voice, or a deep baritone masculine one.
Would BF be able to compete with such a magazine?

What say you?

 

[Bunsen]

BF is a very good magazine, but there are a few good bonsai magazine. If you want to keep customers you have to have reasonable business practices. Whether some people are not bothered by the letter is irrelevant. Isn't the bottom line in this case: "If you are pissing off of your customers, you are doing someting wrong"?

 

[JasonG]

I'm not sure I follow - how is an ad that seeks to sell a product or a service not a solicitation for potential customers? Sure the ad sponsor pays the billboard owner rental for the space, but the point is that they do so to get their product or service out there to get customers.

Coca-Cola pays Fox for a 30 second commercial to be aired during the Super Bowl - why do they do that? To keep brand recognition up, and attract new customers to their product.

I guess my idea of solicitation is when someone comes to me to sell their product. Advertising is selling but in a suggestive way as opposed to someone coming to my door to sell me anything. A bill board, commercial or even a McDonald's sign is in my opinion a suggestion for a need I may or may not have at that time. By no means are they coming to me to sell product.

I know how it works. And yes advertising IS soliciting business. You placing their add on your blog is no different from the commercials that are run on tv. Both are placed there by the owner and the owners are paid by the company that produces the add.

Huge difference Ryan. I chose to put that logo on my blog because I believe in the product and if I never get paid I am way cool with that. If BF was to run an add on tv they would pay huge money up front regardless of the results. Not only that but said TV company could care less about the product and if it actually works or not. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter because if you don't want that truck, hamburger, beer or appendage hardener then you just don't buy it. But if you do then you know what your options are based on visual suggestions.

I've looked into it...you have to have a certain amount of clicks before you get paid...but you probably already knew that

Clicks have nothing to do with it. It is all about subscriptions. Here's how it works, the logo here on the forum has a certain number associated with it. If I subscribe and want my free leaf cutters then I have to click that logo and use the promotional code (the nuts #). This gets me the free cutter and credits him with the sale. BF Won't contact you and let you know they owe you money, but rather in my case I would need to contact them with my code and some ID and they will let me know what is owed to me.

 

[Rick Moquin]

The point was that sometimes it is better to change our expectations, and things turn out for the best for everybody.

May be because I am like Walter, traveled and lived in many places, many continents, and adjust my expectation according to the local customs. I am not here to change the world. Just give me what I paid for. I am not paying for good manners. I am paying for a magazine.

Maybe it's just me but I find your reasoning confusing at times. Jesus did say turn the other cheek but even in the bible there is nothing that states you should let yourself be slapped repeatedly.

As traveled as I am, one of the things I always did was to soak up the local culture etc... that was a high for me. I still do it today. When in Rome do like the Romans, that is something I practice. However, I cannot endorse lousy attitude as forgiving and tolerant as I might be. Rudeness is just plain rude and, yes if it is the only restaurant in town you better learn how to cook. I must say that I have had over the years many positive experiences and the negative ones pale in comparison.

IMO it doesn't matter which cultures does what, rude is rude as defined in the dictionary and IMO is the total lack of proper upbringing (without stereotyping, not the intent), can we agree that there is absolutely no need for it. I believe this in a nutshell is what folks are trying to say and the magazine is secondary, a red herring.

I had a bad experience some years back at a bar in the Ottawa airport where, I was returning to Halifax with my students. Our waiter had major attitude, many of my students were poed and weren't going to tip. I remembered what my mother once told me, return bad service with bad tipping. To leave nothing could pass off as being cheap, to leave a penny sends a message (not dissimilar to what Walter did), we did. There were 4 of us we each left him a penny, he was totally furious to the point that he called us cheap f...ers to his fellow waiter. When his fellow waiter asked how much we had tipped, he stated they each gave me a penny. He then stated << they aren't cheap, they're sending a message>> <<Oh yeah and what's that??>> <<Loose the attitude dude>>

 

[greerhw]

Some of us are talking about apples and some of you are talking about oranges, but it makes for interesting reading, about others opinions, on both issues. I don't have a dog in the magazine fight, but I can understand why some of you are upset, if I spend my hard earned money in this economy, I want my ass kissed ( not literally, but thankfully)

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Attila Soos]

Maybe it's just me but I find your reasoning confusing at times. Jesus did say turn the other cheek but even in the bible there is nothing that states you should get "Jap slapped" (sorry for the metaphor)
.......................

IMO it doesn't matter which cultures does what, rude is rude as defined in the dictionary and IMO is the total lack of proper upbringing (without stereotyping, not the intent), can we agree that there is absolutely no need for it. I believe this in a nutshell is what folks are trying to say and the magazine is secondary, a red herring.

Sure, rude is rude, and nobody likes it. I can't stand rude people.

The problem is, in this particular case, nobody from Bonsai Focus was rude. Some people here perceived the person to be rude, but I didn't. The person provided a plain and direct explanation, with no attempt to appear "polite". Straight, to the subject, without the usual polite expressions that we are used to.

You need to understand that your perception of "rudeness" can be different from others. Sure, if someone slaps you in the face, or pushes you, that means rude in every culture. But if a store clerk looks straight at you while serving you, without any attempt of smiling, that may appear rude to you, but it perfectly "normal" for others. If they speak to you louder than you are used to, that may appear rude to you, but not for them.

What I said was that I don't expect BF to do for me anything beyond the bare minimum of communication, necessary for them to run their business. This doesn't mean that I would tolerate if they called me names, but they didn't do that, did they?

So, you are saying that rudeness should not be tolerated, and I am saying that nobody was rude here, no reason to bend out of shape.

 

[R_F]

Huge difference Ryan. I chose to put that logo on my blog because I believe in the product and if I never get paid I am way cool with that. If BF was to run an add on tv they would pay huge money up front regardless of the results. Not only that but said TV company could care less about the product and if it actually works or not. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter because if you don't want that truck, hamburger, beer or appendage hardener then you just don't buy it. But if you do then you know what your options are based on visual suggestions.

OK Jason...you win...I forgot that it comes down to how the two entities feel about eachother that really counts Seriously though, you're picking at straws now just to defend your point...and I'm not the only one that sees through it.

 

[R_F]

Clicks have nothing to do with it. It is all about subscriptions. Here's how it works, the logo here on the forum has a certain number associated with it. If I subscribe and want my free leaf cutters then I have to click that logo and use the promotional code (the nuts #). This gets me the free cutter and credits him with the sale. BF Won't contact you and let you know they owe you money, but rather in my case I would need to contact them with my code and some ID and they will let me know what is owed to me.

Yes I think it's like 5 subscriptions from your page before you start to see any money...or something like that...thanks for correcting me, we all know that that was a really really really really important issue to be corrected on. The discussion would just be a total waste of time if some one hadn't corrected me on this