Blue Spruce dropping needles after repot

[BosaiMayer]

Hey folks,

I'm pretty new to the hobby though I do have a couple of trees already; I finally decided that I'd like to try training my first tree. I had purchased a little blue spruce tree over Christmas from a local grocery store mainly because it was about $5 and I liked how it smelled. Well, it's survived in it's little pot and I thought it'd be a good time to repot it, but a couple of days after I've noticed a couple of the needles have started to drop off and some are browning.

After the repot I watered quite heavily and over the past four days I've been been using "Super Thrive" as per my local bonsai shop here in Dallas, TX. Still new to the game here folks so I'm trying to give all the information that I know you're likely to ask. The soil I used was from the pot the tree was in and also some additional soil I took from our garden. I used fluorite aquarium gravel on top of the substrate (I used it in my live planted tanks and it supposed to have nutrients that are good for plants - my tanks are doing quite well and I don't dose CO2)

I've moved the tree to an area where it receives morning sun but is shaded in the afternoon; is this the right move to make? Any other thoughts/advice?

*edit - please forgive the grass, it's a rental and the landlord refuses to replant after the previous renters dogs destroyed the yard...it's a matter of principle at this point!

Thank you,

-Matt

Ok, here are the pics!

Pot I started with:


Tree in original pot:



Repotted with gravel and lava rock:

 

[GrimLore]

I can comment but hope that someone from your climate/area pipes in on this. I rarely repot any conifers as they tend to be a little picky where I am located. When I do it is usually in the Summer weather and I put them under a shade tree or under shade cloth giving them partial sun. I keep them damp and mist them as well. I do not fertilize at that time but others may. By the pictures it looks like you took out a lot of root and "to me" some die back would not be uncommon. I am no master in conifers but the ones I have do well. Again I am hoping someone from your area or growing zone chimes in with solid information but to me it looks normal at this point.

Grimmy

 

[bonsaiBlake]

That really looks like an Alberta spruce to me. I know for sure they are pretty heat tolerant, they handle 105+ here every summer, however they always get a nice 3-5mo cold winter dormancy. As long as you get nice cold nights for at least 2mo this tree should do fine.

The afternoon shade is good. I would cut the superthrive, shouldn't really need it. I would stick a bamboo skewer in the soil to monitor moisture however.

 

[LEAVESOFGRASS]

You don't want to water it unless the top soil is dry. That can cause it to brown unless you're using peat which holds water forever. The other issue I see that you have it perched on two aderondack chairs. Seems like a dangerous place for a bonsai to grow so it may have been knocked over do to wind. Just my two sense.

 

[BosaiMayer]

Hey everyone thanks for the tips! I've since moved it to the ground in a slightly more shady spot for the time being hoping the little gal perks up.

Curious, can you explain to me how the bamboo skewer will help monitor soil moisture? Does it weep up the skewer or something visual?

Thanks guys!

-Matt

 

[LEAVESOFGRASS]

You're welcome Matt!

Think of the skewer like a dipstick for gas in your car. It's visual and you can also feel it as the bamboo does a great job wicking it up. I haven't experienced this with bonsai, but with other planting applications. With your plant, you need to water when the top soil is almost dry. No need for a dipstick, just use your hands.

 

[lieuz]

I have a eastern white pine and I too thought I had a problem when my needles started to turn brown and drop. As soon as all the candles on the pine elongated, the inner needles within the branches started to brown and fall off and from 2 years of observing this, I attributed it to age and needles do drop seasonally. Needles will typically stay on for 2-3 years so when it happens it does happen and needles do fall. From the looks at your spruce, it doesn't look like it's in an unhealthy state. Like I mentioned, if the needle drops it's typically within the tree or older parts of branches and shouldn't happen at the tips. If the tips do turn brown it can probably be attributed to a fungal diseases. Because the fungal is less likely to be visible, the tip browning is a clear indication something is wrong. Mites also do a heck of a lot of damage as well, but mites are visible. But like I said, from your pictures it really looks like your tree is really healthy and is probably going through its routine changing of the guards; but needles.

 

[edprocoat]

Matt, I hope it recovers but that is way too severe pruning you did on the roots of that tree. There is most likely no where near enough roots to provide moisture to sustain the needles on that conifer as the needles transpirate water that is absorbed through the roots in a process called osmosis. The exchange of water through the roots and transpiration through the needles is much greater on hot days so your best bet is to keep this plant well watered and shaded and cool for at least a few months so it can , maybe , recover. Its always a good habit to try and remove nearly as much top growth as roots so the roots are able to supply the foliage that is up top with water and nutrients to allow it to recover, but what you did was way to heavy for a first repot, it looks like you removed about 70% of the root mass. Another thing to think about, in a small pot regular soil will stay wet far too long leading to root rot. A Bonsai soil mix with aggregate allows the roots to get wet and freely drain the water away, this process wets everything fully displacing the air in the soil and then as it drains away it literally sucks air down into the soil refreshing the mix and the tree roots preventing root rot while irrigating the trees roots and allowing for absorption through osmosis which brings hydration and mineral nutrients up through the xylem of the trunk and into the leaves/needles which feed the tree through photosynthesis. Good luck with it and do not get depressed or give up if the tree should die, everyone loses trees when they start out, at least that is what I heard about all the other guys here !

ed

 

[M. Frary]

It doesn't look like a blue spruce to me. It looks like it has soft needles?
A blue spruce in Texas?

 

[sorce]

Matt,
Flourite is supposed to make a good bonsai soil itself.

If you get a seedling or something cheap, I'd plant it in 90% Flourite 10% peat, and see how it does.
Water daily.

My only concern is they sell it wet, right? I know one of them is. I think it's because its hard to wet once dry.

Your take?

Sorce

 

[markyscott]

You said

Well, it's survived in it's little pot and I thought it'd be a good time to repot it, but a couple of days after I've noticed a couple of the needles have started to drop off and some are browning.

Then

The soil I used was from the pot the tree was in and also some additional soil I took from our garden. I used fluorite aquarium gravel on top of the substrate.

And finally

Reported with gravel and lava rock

Do I understand that you repotted once using potting soil and garden soil, and then repotted it in gravel and lava rock? Or is it still in the heavy soil with the gravel just laying on top? How much rott did you remove when you did this?

Scott

 

[Giga]

That's looks like a pinus pinea, umbrella pine or whatever they are called, but a not blue spruce. I have no idea how they do as bonsai but I think that species can survive in your zone. A blue spruce would most likly have a slow death in Texas, unless I'm mistaken as they need a cold spell in winter.

 

[BosaiMayer]

Hey guys! Sorry for the delayed response, but I do appreciate your help!

Good news is that it looks like the little tree is starting to bounce back and has started to green up again.

To answer some of the questions/comments above; when I repotted it (just one time), I didn't cut the roots at all. I just put my hand under the root ball and kind of loosened the root ball up a little. I think spread out the roots a little bit before continuing to put more soil in on top, along with the garden soil (it was a thicker soil, clay-like in some ways).

The fluorite aquarium gravel I was referring two *does* come in two varieties; wet and dry. I prefer the dry to the wet, but you do need to rinse it fairly well before putting it into the aquarium until you want a cloudy tank every time you move something around.

Anyway, I intend to let it continue to bounce back for a little while longer before I try any styling. From what I'm reading, most of these spruces take to styling pretty much any time of the year, and I want to make sure it's not in a weakened state before trying anything like that after a repotting!

-Matt

 

[BosaiMayer]

Hey folks!

So I continued to do some research on training a spruce bonsai (btw, more research and I have decided that I the little ole guy is an Alberta Spruce) and after watching some videos and reading further, I found that these cultivated trees (cut like Christmas trees) tend to have parallel branching and also circular, wagon-wheel branching that can cause the trunk of the tree to swell in these areas where these branches bunch up and can ruin the tree for bonsai. I went out and looked and sure-enough, there was quite a bit of that starting on this specimen. As the tree seems to be doing well post transplant I thought I'd risk doing an initial light(ish) pruning to get rid of some of those areas where multiple branches were causing swelling to the trunk and to do an initial styling.

"back" of tree:


"front" - high view:


"front" - straight on view (actually a bad angle of the front; imagine the pot rotated about 20 degrees counter clockwise):


"left" side of tree:


Hoping you can all give me some advice on where it's heading; I'm torn on the split apex - I actually kind of like the idea of a split apex but I don't know how to move forward styling it like that. Also, as can be seen, I'm going to a leaning/tipped over a rock look like it tipped over and then started to correct itself (mild s-curve).

I also read that I should leave some of the needs on the branches if I want the possibility of it budding back closer to the trunk next year; so I've left most of them if there was any green left in them at all.

Still learning folks, so be gentle on me!

Thanks,

-Matt

 

[edprocoat]

You asked "Hoping you can all give me some advice on where it's heading;"

Do not take this as criticism or an attack but as you asked in my opinion judging by all the needles in the pot this one looks to be heading to the fireplace. You would be either lucky or blessed if this one survives, after the massive root removal it had a slim chance of survival ( " slim " is being generous ) and then you worked it again before it had a chance to recover and regain strength.
Conifers can take over a month to die and this one looks like it has a good start down that road already.

ed

 

[BosaiMayer]

Ed,

Hey no worries! I certainly hope you're wrong and that I didn't kill, but if I did then I'll definitely have some learning points!

That said, I didn't do any root removal as you suggest, I just loosened the soil surrounding it (it was pot bound) and kind of spread the roots around the soil in the new pot.

Also, a lot, if not the vast majority of the needles in the substrate were from the trimming. The browning and dropping issue (the reason I started this thread) really went away after I cut back the watering and I didn't really loose any needles. It's not like it's dropping needles when you mess with it. The limbs were all quite supple and pliable.

Not sure if that makes too big a difference as I'm sure you're most certainly correct that I may be up a creek...but I hope not!

Thanks again!

-Matt

 

[edprocoat]

So you were able to "spread the roots around the soil in the new pot " coming from a 2 gallon pot that was "pot bound" and put it into a saucer that looks to be no more than 2 inches deep ?

ed

 

[BosaiMayer]

Ed,

That's correct. Maybe my use of pot bound isn't the correct use of the term though. When I pulled it out there were roots that were all around the outside of the ball. It wasn't a severe as some photos I've seen, however. Also, it isn't more than about two inches deep, but I did leave quite a mound so as not to squish down the/fracture the roots. I did my best to replicate an octopus look - if you can imagine that - with the root systems. So again, I did no root pruning at all and was as gentle as possible so as not to damage more than necessary.

 

[BosaiMayer]

Ed,

Thought I'd try to show some pics of what I am trying to describe - the scan quality isn't super high...

I've tried to denote how I placed the roots both around the bottom of the pot and under the rock.





Als0 - I realized I have a dang typo in my user name!! Can a moderator help me correct it!?

 

[BosaiMayer]

Ed,

I've been awaiting your incredulous, "how dumb can this newbie be?" response! Can you tell me if I've truly made as big an error as you initially thought?!

Thanks!

-Matt