Big Dawn Redwood Chop from Nursery Stock

[cbrshadow23]

I'm located in Chicago and am interested in working with a big Dawn Redwood. I'm familiar with COAST Redwood, and have collected lots of those, chopped and styled them etc, but now I'm interested in Dawn Redwood.
I found some big examples at a local nursery where I get a considerable discount, so I'm considering buying and giving them a chop. When I say chop I mean that I want to cut it about 3ft up from the base and only keep the bottom.
I'm wondering about the process and timing.
- The nursery has these bagged (see photo) not in the ground
- They're probably 15' trees, 4"+ caliper trunks

If this were a COAST Redwood and I was still living in CA I'd just chop the tree at the nursery and chops away a lot of the roots and take the base home with me. I assume I need to be more careful with Dawn Redwood, especially with the summer coming to and end.
Do I:
<Least Aggressive> A) Take the whole tree home and plant it, chop it in the ground next year, then dig it up to put in a pot the following year
<More Aggressive> B) Chop the top of the tree at the nursery, plant it in the ground, dig it up next year to go in a pot
<Most Aggressive> C) Chop the tree at the nursery, remove lots of roots, throw it into a pot at home

Once it's in a pot I do understand that it will need to move into my above-freezing garage under some lights in winter

Here is the tree in question

 

[rockm]

It's a mistake, I think, to overly relate Dawn Redwood to Coast Redwood. A closer comparison for what you can do and how to care for one is more likely Bald Cypress (which is related to both redwoods). Collection is more akin to collecting a big bald cypress, than a coast redwood...

Now is not really the right to to be doing any of the activities you've described, particularly in Chicago.

If I were you, I'd save this for next spring. At that time, I'd have the nursery grub that out of the ground, trunk chop it to a foot where you'd like it and then clean out the root mass as best you can (bareroot it when you get it home) Plant it out in a container with plain bonsai soil and wait for it to pop new buds.

 

[Maiden69]

I wouldn't chop it now in Chicago... and I don't know if I would plant it in the ground to just dig it out and chop it in a few months. Could be done thought. I rather give the tree an entire year of growth unmolested before chopping it.

 

[rockm]

Let the nursery overwinter it, instead of having to scramble to put together winter quarters for it at your house. That's going to require a pretty large container and dedicated space to keep over the winter in a garage, etc.

 

[rockm]

It's a mistake, I think, to overly relate Dawn Redwood to Coast Redwood. A closer comparison for what you can do and how to care for one is more likely Bald Cypress (which is related to both redwoods). Collection is more akin to collecting a big bald cypress, than a coast redwood...

Now is not really the right to to be doing any of the activities you've described, particularly in Chicago.

If I were you, I'd save this for next spring. At that time, I'd have the nursery grub that out of the ground, trunk chop it to a foot where you'd like it and then clean out the root mass as best you can (bareroot it when you get it home) Plant it out in a container with plain bonsai soil and wait for it to pop new buds.

Should be chopped a foot ABOVE where you see the "finished" tree's height...

 

[snowman04]

Let the nursery overwinter it, instead of having to scramble to put together winter quarters for it at your house. That's going to require a pretty large container and dedicated space to keep over the winter in a garage, etc.

I agree with the rest. I'm bedding down a BC about the same size but it's ready for the garage session here in lower Michigan.

 

[cbrshadow23]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the info. I'll do what you recommend here and wait until Spring to get a couple of these big dawn redwoods.
It sounds like a relatively safe plan is to:
- Wait until Spring
- Chop the tree (1ft above the final height)
- bare root and then put into a pot
- keep soil moist

 

[dbonsaiw]

Should be chopped a foot ABOVE where you see the "finished" tree's height...

Can you explain why?

 

[rockm]

Can you explain why?

Because you want to maximize space for a new bud to pop to use for the apex later on. If you chop exactly to where the "finished" height might be, you and or may not (mostly not) get a bud closest to where you want. More space can give you more options.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Because you want to maximize space for a new bud to pop to use for the apex later on. If you chop exactly to where the "finished" height might be, you and or may not (mostly not) get a bud closest to where you want. More space can give you more options.

Thank you

 

[Maiden69]

Because you want to maximize space for a new bud to pop to use for the apex later on. If you chop exactly to where the "finished" height might be, you and or may not (mostly not) get a bud closest to where you want. More space can give you more options.

If DR responds anything like BC, I wouldn't chop that high considering that this tree is fairly straight pole thick. Almost all the BCs that I have chopped sends multiple shoots from the cut site, like elms do. I would do the "traditional" 1/3" of the projected height plus a few inches to start developing taper. More if there is a plan on carving above the next extension.

@cbrshadow23 If... and this is a big if, you are willing to wait, you could achieve this thickness in 3-4 years out of a 1 -2 year old seedling with the right techniques. The tree on the pictures here have almost the same base size as my 4 year old BC, which is only 5 feet tall from the nebari and have never been chopped. Which will give you a better starting point. Or you could get this one for practicing techniques while you develop others. Heck, you could get this one in spring and after chopping it, try to make cuttings out of the branches. The more the merrier.

 

[rockm]

If DR responds anything like BC, I wouldn't chop that high considering that this tree is fairly straight pole thick. Almost all the BCs that I have chopped sends multiple shoots from the cut site, like elms do. I would do the "traditional" 1/3" of the projected height plus a few inches to start developing taper. More if there is a plan on carving above the next extension.

@cbrshadow23 If... and this is a big if, you are willing to wait, you could achieve this thickness in 3-4 years out of a 1 -2 year old seedling with the right techniques. The tree on the pictures here have almost the same base size as my 4 year old BC, which is only 5 feet tall from the nebari and have never been chopped. Which will give you a better starting point. Or you could get this one for practicing techniques while you develop others. Heck, you could get

Although it may be on the high side of a chop, I'm trying to take in the more northerly location and species. Shorter time frame to push new buds. DR is vigorous, but not as vigorous as a BC in Texas. Sure you can cut lower, just not directly to "finished" height.

 

[cbrshadow23]

I'm set on buying the big tree in the spring to work on, but have a few questions.
1) The tree's roots are bagged and wired tight right now (pic below). Do nurseries typically keep these bagged like this all winter and just move them into a greenhouse?
2) When I get the tree in mid Spring I'll chop it right away - that'll make getting it home even easier. How much of the root base can I remove? I imagine the bag isn't solid roots (lots of soil, presumably) so how close to the trunk can I chop back the roots to? How much depth (from trunk downward) do I need to keep? I'd like to get the tree into a grow box or a mica training pot asap.
Here's a photo of what the bagged tree looks like

 

[rockm]

I'm set on buying the big tree in the spring to work on, but have a few questions.
1) The tree's roots are bagged and wired tight right now (pic below). Do nurseries typically keep these bagged like this all winter and just move them into a greenhouse?
2) When I get the tree in mid Spring I'll chop it right away - that'll make getting it home even easier. How much of the root base can I remove? I imagine the bag isn't solid roots (lots of soil, presumably) so how close to the trunk can I chop back the roots to? How much depth (from trunk downward) do I need to keep? I'd like to get the tree into a grow box or a mica training pot asap.
Here's a photo of what the bagged tree looks like
View attachment 508291

From what I've seen of Balled and Burlapped stock landscape trees at nurseries around here, they're simply mulched in to the top of the root mass in Noveber-ish. Moving them into a greenhouse does more harm than good. Temperate zone trees need dormancy. Greenhouse storage is also expensive. Nurseries try to get rid of stock in the late summer/fall so they don't have to spend money to overwinter it.

I've chopped (or had the nursery guys chop) 25 ft bald cypress at the nursery to get them into my truck. Barerooted it as well (however, ask before you do that in the nursery as it leaves a big mess of dirt and mud which they won't appreciate. Be warned you will be told chopping it and barerooting will void any health warranty the nursery has. Some nurseries will refuse to allow any of that to take place on their facility--in some rare instances, some nurseries will criticize "bonzai" and will cuss at you for ruining a good tree...Others, and these are the nurseries to stick with--will actually help you chop and bareroot and laugh with glee while doing it. These nurseries are typically familiar with bonsai and how they're made.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Nurseries try to get rid of stock in the late summer/fall so they don't have to spend money to overwinter it.

50% off trees after Halloween.

Others, and these are the nurseries to stick with-

Second that. One of the nurseries by me really gets a kick out of seeing what I'm doing with the trees. They actually love what they do, love their trees and are excited to see what their customers are doing.

 

[cbrshadow23]

Thanks guys this is super helpful!
I noticed that my nursery has some pretty big "Gold Rush Dawn Redwood" for sale at similar big sizes. Are you guys familiar with these? They put out a lot of yellow/gold leaves. They tell me they're also fast growers. Is anyone using these for bonsai that you know of?

 

[Maiden69]

2) When I get the tree in mid Spring I'll chop it right away - that'll make getting it home even easier. How much of the root base can I remove? I imagine the bag isn't solid roots (lots of soil, presumably) so how close to the trunk can I chop back the roots to? How much depth (from trunk downward) do I need to keep? I'd like to get the tree into a grow box or a mica training pot asap.

For some ideas on how to manage the roots

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[andrewiles]

Often the b&b trees will be in heavy clay. Weighs a ton and hard to water. If I were you I would bare root it and get it into better soil immediately. DRs are rugged and as long as you have buds below the chop you should be fine, even with drastic root reduction. They also root well from hardwood cuttings, so if you strike any pencil-thin cuttings from above the chop you'll have a forest of new trees in a few years. Just make sure do protect from freezing after any of this. And choose a soil mix and watering plan that keeps them moist. They like their feet in standing water in summer weather.

One bit of caution. I haven't chopped a DR on purpose, though I did air layer the top off one this year. The bottom two feet of trunk was limb and needle free at the time and I kept it around to see if it would regrow. It did not. So, while just one data point, it may be that DRs don't bud back on bare lower trunks like bald cypress.

 

[andrewiles]

Thanks guys this is super helpful!
I noticed that my nursery has some pretty big "Gold Rush Dawn Redwood" for sale at similar big sizes. Are you guys familiar with these? They put out a lot of yellow/gold leaves. They tell me they're also fast growers. Is anyone using these for bonsai that you know of?

I have several of these. They are strong growers, though not as fast as the species. Needles are fantastic in the summer. The needles tend to burn in hot sun and any gap in constant root moisture, so you'd likely need afternoon shade in your climate.

They are also usually grafted, and the bark is different vs. the rootstock. So you'd need to air layer. Gold Rush is harder to layer than the species but it can be done and they seem fine on their own roots after. Softwood cuttings are also possible. They take longer and with reduced results vs. the species, but they also seem to grow fine once they've rooted. Gold Rush is patented but the patent is expired, by my understanding of it. So propagation should be ok.

 

[cbrshadow23]

I have several of these. They are strong growers, though not as fast as the species. Needles are fantastic in the summer. The needles tend to burn in hot sun and any gap in constant root moisture, so you'd likely need afternoon shade in your climate.

They are also usually grafted, and the bark is different vs. the rootstock. So you'd need to air layer. Gold Rush is harder to layer than the species but it can be done and they seem fine on their own roots after. Softwood cuttings are also possible. They take longer and with reduced results vs. the species, but they also seem to grow fine once they've rooted. Gold Rush is patented but the patent is expired, by my understanding of it. So propagation should be ok.

Would you mind explaining the graft part? I only have a basic understanding of grafting and reasons people do it, but why wouldn't they just grow a 'Gold Rush' on its own rather than grafting the top portion to a standard Dawn Redwood?