best soil mix for jack pine yamadori?

[0soyoung]

I occasionally sell collected shore pines that i have developed. I am not involved with on line sales or shipping. Strictly old school with individuals on site by appointment or at one of the open houses i hold throughout the year for the public and local Bonsai clubs. Since i have such a small operation this works very well. It takes time to develop trees after collection and i collect a limited number, generally less than ten per year!

Do you have the Ag certification (papers) for a tree of yours to be relocated into the US?

 

[River's Edge]

Do you have the Ag certification (papers) for a tree of yours to be relocated into the US?

The process in Canada is different from the United States. In order for a tree to be admitted to the USA, an import permit must first be obtained by the US citizen or US company wishing to import the tree into the country. After the import permit is obtained ( from USDA APHIS ) then the tree must have a phytosanitary certificate issued by Canadian authorities that state it is compliant with the requirements to import the tree into the state in question. This phytosanitary certificate will only be issued if the tree meets the requirements of th federal government (USDA) and the State involved. Note that the import requirements are different for individual states. The federal USA department APHIS issues the import permit, however the States set the regulations for species and specific requirements that must be met.
Last i checked the restrictions for pine had increased and they could only be transported during certain times of the year. I believe this was to reduce the risk of certain pests!
In summary each shipment requires all steps in the process. It is not based on a particular agriculture certificate. Although just as in the states a certified nursery. One that is inspected on a regular basis makes the process easier. The easier part is that the phytosanitary inspection is usually easier to arrange and inspectors have more confidence in the registered nursery. I have found this varies from state to state and between Canada and various states.

 

[Tieball]

This thread made my solo brunch a hell of a lot more interesting. Love this site so much.

Transplanting two younger jacks into the grow bed next spring and will take the above as guidance.

@B-rad in GR You May find this information handy or helpful for your Jack Pine adventure. Might help you keep some buds on branches closer to the trunk as the trees grow.

Tips

You should link land on a page that starts like this:

 

[M. Frary]

I agree that they are not one of the best species for bonsai but still worth while enough

Walter Pall thinks they have some great potential.

Mr. Frary! Really.
Long Internodes on Wild Jack Pine is natural growth pattern! At least that is what the post was about! Did you really think i was unaware of the effects of fertiliser on pines?

Do you see long needles or internodes?

 

[penumbra]

Not meaning to high-jack the thread but I just bought three Jack Pines 'Schoodik" variety. They were collected in Main. Anything from anyone on these?

 

[River's Edge]

Walter Pall thinks they have some great potential.

View attachment 264623
Do you see long needles or internodes?

The tree pictured above does not relate to the discussion that was taking place. The discussion has nothing to do with Mr. Pall. Do you consider this to be the natural growth pattern that was being discussed? Understanding natural growth patterns is important for Bonsai development before one starts to plan the application and timing of techniques.
Some species lend themselves more to Bonsai, others take more expertise and time to develop.

 

[August44]

Not meaning to high-jack the thread but I just bought three Jack Pines 'Schoodik" variety. They were collected in Main. Anything from anyone on these?

Where did you get them if I can ask?

 

[penumbra]

Where did you get them if I can ask?

Hi Peter. I have respect for your posts. You are quite a gentleman. I bought them from an eBay seller in Main. His seller name is 3128johnr
I have bought from him before this past year, a Balsam Fir and some very nice White Spruce. He is worth checking on time to time. Very healthy plants. I am picking up my jack pines in about 2 hours at the PO.

 

[Minnesota Madman]

what soil mix do you guys use for your jack pine yamadori?

I've been using Missouri Arboretum's site to gather bits of information on the trees I have and what their natural preferences are, what they can and can't tolerate and so on. They're not very thorough, but I can use the site for nearly every tree I can think of for a basic run-down.

Pinus banksiana - Plant Finder

Similar to Siberian Elm or Red Cedar, which are other local trees to us, they are very tolerant to a variety of soils ranging from acidic to alkaline, overly wet to overly dry. There's proof of their tolerances in the wild. So to keep it simple, this sounds like a great tree to collect, and it should be alright with any combination of any modern substrate. DE, pumice, lava, bark, chopped sphagnum, granite, akadama, perlite (Walter Pall likes to throw in the option for styrofoam bits, but I'll pass on that one).

 

[Minnesota Madman]

Walter Pall thinks they have some great potential.

View attachment 264623
Do you see long needles or internodes?

Yo, I'm with you on seriously examining Jack Pine as bonsai material. Somebody has to do the work, study their habits and requirements, document what works, pass on the knowledge and so on. Somebody will soon be a Jack Pine Master in the upper Midwest. Just look what happened with Rocky Mountain Junipers and Ponderosa Pines. Jack Pine is next in line. Only a handful of people know where the quality yamadori are hidden in these parts. Without a mountain range, you have to know where to look - what stunts them on flat farm lands - they lay in wait, hidden, being ninja, like me! I think there are a number of trees in MN that should be looked at more closely. Red Cedar, Quaking Aspen and Siberian Elm are all considered garbage trees in the non-bonsai (real) world, yet they have some great qualities! Quaking aspen and Jack pine can tolerate zone 2 temps, Quaking aspen and Siberian Elm already have relatively small leaves. Red Cedar are so readily available, and are so tolerant of soils - you could grow these species in a pot full of crushed coke bottles and last night's leftovers.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Not meaning to high-jack the thread but I just bought three Jack Pines 'Schoodik" variety. They were collected in Main. Anything from anyone on these?

Jack Pine 'Schoodik' or more correctly Pinus banksiana 'Schoodic' The correct spelling ends with a 'c', rather than 'k'.
Labeled with a cultivar name means these trees could NOT BE COLLECTED, this is a registered, named cultivar. It is widely available in the rock garden landscape nursery trade. Only a single plant was originally found, all resulting plants are the result of propagation by grafting. It was registered in 1979, I don't know if it is a witches broom or a genetic dwarf, but it is a prostrate - low growing - dwarf form of jack pine with fairly short needles. Your 3 plants of 'Schoodic' have got to be 3 plants propagated by grafting. Somewhere on the trunks, you should see the scar of the graft union. They were most likely grafted onto Scots pine understock. So the roots are scots pine, sylvestris, and the growth is a particular cultivar of jack pine, banksiana 'Schoodic'.

If they actually were raised from seed, acquired from a P. banksiana 'Schoodic' , because each seedling is genetically different than its parent, the seedlings can not be called 'Schoodic' and there is no guarantee that these seedlings would retain the shorter needles and prostrate growth habit of the parent 'Schoodic'. Seedlings can not be listed as 'Schoodic', but they can be described as seedlings from 'Schoodic'. If they are from seed you could give each seedling a unique cultivar name as each will have unique genetics. It is a pain in the behind to formally register the cultivar names, but it can be done if you plan on propagating the seedlings. If indeed you have seedlings.

So, are your 3 jack pines grafted 'Schoodic' ? or are your 3 jack pines seedlings without a cultivar name, but who's parentage includes 'Schoodic' for at least 50% of its genetics?

Not trying to be a nit picking detail orientated jerk, but it is helpful for you to understand what you are growing, and especially through Ebay, sellers are often sloppy about correctly informing their customers as to what they are buying.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

If your P. banksiana 'Schoodic' are the real deal, their original stock plant they were propagated from was only 2 feet tall and 4 feet wide at 20 years of growing.

For bonsai a slow growing, low mat forming dwarf will be difficult to keep patience with. Instead of being able to cut back and grow out over the course of a couple years, you will have to wait many times longer to get a growth and recovery from any pruning session. You might only need to prune 'Schoodic' once every 5 years or so. For 'Schoodic' one really tries to use all the foliage you have in any styling you do, and avoid plans where one cuts back and expects new growth to fill in to complete the design. Because filling in (new growth) to complete the design will take years longer than it would with the normal forms of the species.

Slow growing cultivars can be a problem in bonsai, simply because they do not grow enough to give you design options.

 

[Minnesota Madman]

Leave it in the field soil for at least a year.
Also I collect them only in the spring.
Later and they don't pull through winter.
Slowly remove the sand over a period of years.
Do not attempt to bare root or half bare root these trees.
They love sand.
And don't like quick changes.
Mine do exceptionally well in Godzilla mix. (D.E. and lava) no bark,no akadama. Just what it listed.
Fertilizer does this.
They grow continually after needles harden.
Cut back a little on fertilizer,no more long internodes or needles.

M. Frary,
Is Godzilla Mix 50/50 DE/Lava?
Is Godzilla Mix your very own creation?

 

[penumbra]

If your P. banksiana 'Schoodic' are the real deal,

They are all very full with smaller than average needles and prostrate. None of them has any graft. They are all on original roots.

 

[M. Frary]

M. Frary,
Is Godzilla Mix 50/50 DE/Lava?
Is Godzilla Mix your very own creation?

Basically it is 50/50.
For trees that like more water like tamaracks or elms I use more D.E.
For conifers I use more lava.
It works great for me.
I used to just use D.E. but with the lava mixed in I get better moisture control. I think.
I called it Godzilla mix because well yeah I created it.

 

[Minnesota Madman]

Basically it is 50/50.
For trees that like more water like tamaracks or elms I use more D.E.
For conifers I use more lava.
It works great for me.
I used to just use D.E. but with the lava mixed in I get better moisture control. I think.
I called it Godzilla mix because well yeah I created it.

Thanks. After asking, I realized it's still my job to decide what's best for my trees, but the Godzilla Mix sounds like a really good one.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

They are all very full with smaller than average needles and prostrate. None of them has any graft. They are all on original roots.

Well, I'm stumped. Either they all have nice well healed grafts, or they were propagated by seed. Which means, they can not be called 'Schoodic'.

But I will leave further exploration to you. You need to check provenance on your pines, they can not be 'Schoodic' if they were not grafted. Check back with your source.

You have a mystery there. As long as you don't commercially propagate your plants, the mystery doesn't have to be solved, but it would be unethical to sell any of these as 'Schoodic', which commands a premium price over a typical jack pine, with out solving the mystery of their origin. Wild collected? Then they are not 'Schoodic'.

 

[penumbra]

You have a mystery there. As long as you don't commercially propagate your plants, the mystery doesn't have to be solved, but it would be unethical to sell any of these as 'Schoodic', which commands a premium price over a typical jack pine, with out solving the mystery of their origin. Wild collected? Then they are not 'Schoodic'.

I understand what you are saying Leo, I was a nurseryman for 50 years. I sent an email off to the man who I bought them from to find out more about these pines. My feeling is that they are from seed and exhibit the same or very similar aberrations as the mother plant. I am very curious as to what the seller says because all of the other plants I bought from him were wild collected in Maine; Balsam Fir, White and Red Spruce. Thank you for your input and I will let you know what I find out and post a picture of one of them.

 

[penumbra]

Leo, seller says he grew them from seed from a Schoodic pine and that they look just like the mother plant. So you are right that they are not technically Schoodic, not that it matters to me because I do not plant to sell or propagate them.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Good news is, you can give each a unique cultivar name. Which if one proved over time to be different enough to be worth propagating, you could register and trademark the name.

I would just refer to them as seedlings of a dwarf variety. I would not refer to them as wild collected. Even if they were a few decades old, they are from "domestic" seed.

An example:
Hidden Gardens in Illinois has been selling "collected" trees from a nursery that went out of business 30 or more years ago, and the trees were dug when the land was being cleared for a developer. Jeff and his crew have confused many people with the way they label these collected from a nursery trees. These trees, being 40 plus years, or more old, are very much worth the prices similar age yamadori get, and HG wants the customers to understand the high prices for this unique nursery stock. So HG has been referring to them as "collected" and the customer hears "wild collected" and the nursery stock ancestry gets lost.

Appearance of the tree is what gives bonsai it's value. Whether from seed or from the wild doesn't matter. Correct naming is a pet peeve of mine from my forays into orchid taxonomy and collecting rare plants. I have a Ficus that I still have not gotten a good species name for. I've been working on it since 1992.

So I'm glad you have the provenance of these Jack pines worked out. Excellent. I would love to see them as they develop.