Bonsaidoorguy
Chumono
My tri color is popping and I have some blooms. 
Beeches, are yours awake yet??
- Thread starter coachspinks
- Start date
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
MACH5
Imperial Masterpiece
My European beech from Judy and two other unusual European beech ( fagus Rotundifolia) in my grow out area have buds just now elongating but no green visible. All my Japanese beech have leafed out or in the process of.
Gustavo Martins
Omono
A lot of deciduous on the landscape are only now starting here including tílias, elms, poplar, prunus etc and I’m in a kind of sub tropical area. So there are many factors that affect these. Warmth is not the only one, otherwise all plants would be in full throttle here which ain’t the case.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
According to Walter Pall in several posts (that I have stolen and put in a .pdf file that I carry around on my phone):
I applied my normal techniques, like for all of my trees. Absolutely no pinching right after the buds open. This will weaken all trees too much. Give up pinching!!!
NO, let grow new growth for six weeks then cut back to two buds. If the tree is very strong at the same time totally defoliate. If not strong do nothing. Then a second flush will occur. Let grow freely and cut back before middle of August again. Then wait until foliage is off. Around end of November or later do detailed editing of crown. Repeat for ten years and you will have a tree like this. If you follow the instructions and pinch new growth as soon as ii is out. You will never ever get there. Also only repot when absolutely necessary. Every repotting will weaken the tree considerably. Do NOT cut roots at repotting. So simply do exactly the contrary of what they tell you and you will get there. No kidding.
Methods can only be judged by repeated results. Even if it all sounds crazy. If the result can be repeated many times the method is working better than conventional wisdom. Warning: If you are not reading carefully what I write you might ruin or kill the tree. It seems that this is hard to get. I have written this for years now and still get these questions. For example folks will read this and still pinch! I cannot believe it. No pinching at all - ever - if you really want to get there!
on very young tree, like those that are younger than 20 years you can cut roots, but not as much as you were taught. You should also repot these every three to four years. On older beech I try to totally avoid cutting roots. I also repot these only when the root ball is so dense that water and air can hardly get though. This happens in my garden after seven or so years or even later.
Detailed editing of the crown I do at the very end of fall. I first rip off all the brown foliage and then carefully look at every single branch and decide about shortening, keeping, pulling with guy wire etc. At this time of the year I do not wire and bend as many of these branches will be dad in spring. This editing can be done any time from November to April. Beeches MUST be protected from cold anyway.
About cold weather: your should know BEECHES ARE NOT HARDY IN A BONSAI POT EVEN IF THE BIG TREE IS HARDY AROUND THERE. Sorry for shouting - it was just to save the life of some beeches. Beeches as well as oaks (which are closely related) must be protected form frost in the roots. The top is somehow hardy, the roots are not much. So my beeches are always in a greenhouse or similar in winter until end of March. In this environment the buds start to open about three to four weeks earlier than outside. This is a very dangerous time. The tree should sit outside when it is warm, but must be protected from late frosts which can appear in April or even up to the beginning of May. Again, the new foliage is somehow a little frost proof. The new fine roots which appear at the same time are absolutely not frost proof. If in one night the whole soil freezes the tree is probably gone because the fine new roots have died.
So sayeth Walter Pall
I applied my normal techniques, like for all of my trees. Absolutely no pinching right after the buds open. This will weaken all trees too much. Give up pinching!!!
NO, let grow new growth for six weeks then cut back to two buds. If the tree is very strong at the same time totally defoliate. If not strong do nothing. Then a second flush will occur. Let grow freely and cut back before middle of August again. Then wait until foliage is off. Around end of November or later do detailed editing of crown. Repeat for ten years and you will have a tree like this. If you follow the instructions and pinch new growth as soon as ii is out. You will never ever get there. Also only repot when absolutely necessary. Every repotting will weaken the tree considerably. Do NOT cut roots at repotting. So simply do exactly the contrary of what they tell you and you will get there. No kidding.
Methods can only be judged by repeated results. Even if it all sounds crazy. If the result can be repeated many times the method is working better than conventional wisdom. Warning: If you are not reading carefully what I write you might ruin or kill the tree. It seems that this is hard to get. I have written this for years now and still get these questions. For example folks will read this and still pinch! I cannot believe it. No pinching at all - ever - if you really want to get there!
on very young tree, like those that are younger than 20 years you can cut roots, but not as much as you were taught. You should also repot these every three to four years. On older beech I try to totally avoid cutting roots. I also repot these only when the root ball is so dense that water and air can hardly get though. This happens in my garden after seven or so years or even later.
Detailed editing of the crown I do at the very end of fall. I first rip off all the brown foliage and then carefully look at every single branch and decide about shortening, keeping, pulling with guy wire etc. At this time of the year I do not wire and bend as many of these branches will be dad in spring. This editing can be done any time from November to April. Beeches MUST be protected from cold anyway.
About cold weather: your should know BEECHES ARE NOT HARDY IN A BONSAI POT EVEN IF THE BIG TREE IS HARDY AROUND THERE. Sorry for shouting - it was just to save the life of some beeches. Beeches as well as oaks (which are closely related) must be protected form frost in the roots. The top is somehow hardy, the roots are not much. So my beeches are always in a greenhouse or similar in winter until end of March. In this environment the buds start to open about three to four weeks earlier than outside. This is a very dangerous time. The tree should sit outside when it is warm, but must be protected from late frosts which can appear in April or even up to the beginning of May. Again, the new foliage is somehow a little frost proof. The new fine roots which appear at the same time are absolutely not frost proof. If in one night the whole soil freezes the tree is probably gone because the fine new roots have died.
So sayeth Walter Pall
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
I was hugely concerned about a tri-color I bought last fall but it finally leafed out May first.
WNC Bonsai
Masterpiece
According to Walter Pall in several posts (that I have stolen and put in a .pdf file that I carry around on my phone):
I applied my normal techniques, like for all of my trees. Absolutely no pinching right after the buds open. This will weaken all trees too much. Give up pinching!!!
NO, let grow new growth for six weeks then cut back to two buds. If the tree is very strong at the same time totally defoliate. If not strong do nothing. Then a second flush will occur. Let grow freely and cut back before middle of August again. Then wait until foliage is off. Around end of November or later do detailed editing of crown. Repeat for ten years and you will have a tree like this. If you follow the instructions and pinch new growth as soon as ii is out. You will never ever get there. Also only repot when absolutely necessary. Every repotting will weaken the tree considerably. Do NOT cut roots at repotting. So simply do exactly the contrary of what they tell you and you will get there. No kidding.
Methods can only be judged by repeated results. Even if it all sounds crazy. If the result can be repeated many times the method is working better than conventional wisdom. Warning: If you are not reading carefully what I write you might ruin or kill the tree. It seems that this is hard to get. I have written this for years now and still get these questions. For example folks will read this and still pinch! I cannot believe it. No pinching at all - ever - if you really want to get there!
on very young tree, like those that are younger than 20 years you can cut roots, but not as much as you were taught. You should also repot these every three to four years. On older beech I try to totally avoid cutting roots. I also repot these only when the root ball is so dense that water and air can hardly get though. This happens in my garden after seven or so years or even later.
Detailed editing of the crown I do at the very end of fall. I first rip off all the brown foliage and then carefully look at every single branch and decide about shortening, keeping, pulling with guy wire etc. At this time of the year I do not wire and bend as many of these branches will be dad in spring. This editing can be done any time from November to April. Beeches MUST be protected from cold anyway.
About cold weather: your should know BEECHES ARE NOT HARDY IN A BONSAI POT EVEN IF THE BIG TREE IS HARDY AROUND THERE. Sorry for shouting - it was just to save the life of some beeches. Beeches as well as oaks (which are closely related) must be protected form frost in the roots. The top is somehow hardy, the roots are not much. So my beeches are always in a greenhouse or similar in winter until end of March. In this environment the buds start to open about three to four weeks earlier than outside. This is a very dangerous time. The tree should sit outside when it is warm, but must be protected from late frosts which can appear in April or even up to the beginning of May. Again, the new foliage is somehow a little frost proof. The new fine roots which appear at the same time are absolutely not frost proof. If in one night the whole soil freezes the tree is probably gone because the fine new roots have died.
So sayeth Walter Pall
Well I got part of my question answered today, I think. Back in the winter a squirrel bit off a couple of the terminal buds so I was afraid the branch might die back. However I noticed today that there appear to be buds forming at points along the branch. So maybe a radical approach would be to clip off the terminal buds as a way to induce buds to form at points further back on branches. I am sure that @Walter Pall is shaking his head now but has anyone actually tried doing this? Or will doing as Walter suggested and waiting a few weeks and then cutting back to 2 leaves also induce back budding?
leatherback
The Treedeemer
I jave tried that this winter. It is still too early to give my final opinion but to date things seem to go well
AlainK
Imperial Masterpiece
From what (experienced) friends at my club said:
Beech:
Pinching just at budbreak gives shorter internodes. The first internodes on a new shoot are shorter than those that develop later. So maybe it's better to use this technique on established trees.
It's true that when you prune a beech hard, dormant buds will appear lower. No info on removing the terminal buds.
Hornbeam:
The first internodes are the same length as the next ones, so there's no use pinching, it's better to let the new shoots grow, then prune them to 2 leaves when they've developped.
Beech:
Pinching just at budbreak gives shorter internodes. The first internodes on a new shoot are shorter than those that develop later. So maybe it's better to use this technique on established trees.
It's true that when you prune a beech hard, dormant buds will appear lower. No info on removing the terminal buds.
Hornbeam:
The first internodes are the same length as the next ones, so there's no use pinching, it's better to let the new shoots grow, then prune them to 2 leaves when they've developped.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
this isnt a radical approach.
its normal to edit a beech or any deciduous tree through autumn or over winter. by pruning strong areas..
the usual result is that buds further back will be stimulated. i do this while the beech is dormant and it works to stimulate buds further back.
pinching in spring after bud break works too, to stimulate dormant buds, but i also understand how this and defoliation could weaken a tree.
last season i defoliated one of my beeches and got the desired result of smaller more compact foliage. i tried that on another beech and it hasnt woken up this year, died over winter.so many variables, one had a dense root pad, the other was also re potted that year.
all Walter is saying, he is merely stating he doesnt recommend pinching and doesnt do it on his own beeches.
i think if you wish to follow someones approach you should also understand how the tree is fed. Also, Walter hasnt repotted some of his beech in over a decade, so these are extremely well established trees with vigorous root systems.. things to consider
So what might work on somebody elses beech, isnt necessarily going to work on yours. no guarantees with beech.they will happily put out one flush for the season. if you have a healthy, vigorous beech you might induce a second flush with a hard prune back to two leaves during the season.
i will try this approach for myself this time, but as my beech has been recently repotted, it might not work until the trees built up a head of steam for a few years.
Last edited:
WNC Bonsai
Masterpiece
Yes, I recognize the importance of the trees state of health. This particular beech is one I collected a little over a year ago. Last spring it put out a half hearted bunch of new leaves but they were few and the shoots didn’t lengthen much at all. This spring it is sending out shoots several inches long and making 6-8 new leaves on each new shoot so its health has improved greatly and seems quite strong comparatively. I am sure that anything involving removing buds or even pinching back new leaves would not be good for a recently collected tree. If I remmeber correctly in his videos Ray Neil recommends letting trees in development grow out until the leaves/needles harden off then cutting back to 2, which sounds like what Walter is saying.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
so let it grow unrestricted this year to build reserves befor you do any trimming, next year
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
sure, there is a few different methods that will yield results. if you have a few bits of material you could try things for yourself. beech is a sometimes they do, sometimes they dont type of tree.
might be a good idea to let your recently collected tree build up a head of steam. thats the usual advice for collected trees, let it rest for 2 or 3 years before doing anything
might be a good idea to nip down to the nursery and pick up a few established bits you could experiment on if you need to do something
AlainK
Imperial Masterpiece
Most of the time, Walter is right.
At least when he speaks about his trees in his environment.
Taking everything he says for granted is like joining a cult.
The best "method" is what works where you are, with your trees, and I'm pretty sure he would agree with that...
TN_Jim
Omono
The beech I have -all collected within the last 3 yr., seem to be the most sensitive among all other species.
I more and more can’t help but think this maybe because of their root system is way more sensitive, and/or slower to develop than other deciduous. ...Possible other biotic associations.
I want to test this by treating hopefully any decent collected material more like a pine or juniper, and not completely bare rooting such as relative-standard deciduous practice...
<~ is that something anyone has seen a benifit from?
Fact is, they (American beech -F. g) don’t appear to care about wind or other factors faced with a container in the wild...this is comparative to associated collected species in same habitat...Carpinus c./E. Hop hornbeam. ——— this would especially make sense to Mr. Paul not repotting one for 12 years (edit), where other species this would not be the case..
I more and more can’t help but think this maybe because of their root system is way more sensitive, and/or slower to develop than other deciduous. ...Possible other biotic associations.
I want to test this by treating hopefully any decent collected material more like a pine or juniper, and not completely bare rooting such as relative-standard deciduous practice...
<~ is that something anyone has seen a benifit from?
Fact is, they (American beech -F. g) don’t appear to care about wind or other factors faced with a container in the wild...this is comparative to associated collected species in same habitat...Carpinus c./E. Hop hornbeam. ——— this would especially make sense to Mr. Paul not repotting one for 12 years (edit), where other species this would not be the case..
TN_Jim
Omono
maybe they really aren’t that sensitive or unpredictable is what I’m saying, and maybe techniques applied to established trees should be taken as a plan not an applied directive with newer material -techniques that could lead to all/a bunch of issues addressed in this thread recently and others...just thoughts
My beech started to finally leaf out. Got it out of the ground and in a training box.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
I don't do beech trees but the ones in the landscape are just now starting to get buds swelling.
American elms are almost starting too.
Up here the American elm is the last to leaf out.
There is nothing here with a new leaf on it yet.
Heck,we just had a hard freeze last night.
22 degrees or something like that,who cares?
We had some snow yesterday.
Left everything out on the benches because I dont do the Curly shuffle. I never do. Don't even cover them up.
Up here the trees know all about spring or lack thereof.
American elms are almost starting too.
Up here the American elm is the last to leaf out.
There is nothing here with a new leaf on it yet.
Heck,we just had a hard freeze last night.
22 degrees or something like that,who cares?
We had some snow yesterday.
Left everything out on the benches because I dont do the Curly shuffle. I never do. Don't even cover them up.
Up here the trees know all about spring or lack thereof.
Bonsaidoorguy
Chumono
My euro beech try color is almost fully extended. Got it at the end of last year as a nursery clearance. $18.00 I'm happy with it so far.
