Azalea seeds received from Glaucus.

[fredman]

Since the older thread unfortunately died, I decided to start another.
I like to welcome everyone that has received seeds from @Glaucus to use this thread to show how their flowers and trees are progressing.
I've received 3 batches of seeds so far.
First batch I planted Jan 2021. Unfortunately I wasn't very organised at the start. I up planted only a few...at different times during that season, as I didn't have much space...and was only interested in a few new multi colours (i didn't really care about names and labelling). The result being that some are bigger than others now.
This is the seeds before planting....and how they looking now.

This past spring a few even flowered. I could've had more flowering if I replanted them all together then.
I've since cleared up my act and are taking it more serious. I'll be sure to keep track of the labels going forward.
The 2nd batch didn't go well. I had just about zero germination...but that is in the past now.
This is the 3rd batch and they're starting to germinate as we speak.

I'll soon have an update (with photos) on them.

 

[fredman]

Closer ups of batch 1.
I've trimmed them and wired some movement into the trunks. I'll leave them now to grow as much they want the next 5 months. I expect most all to set buds this year. Looking forward to an explosion of colour next spring. It'll be 3 years then.

 

[fredman]

Batch 2 didn't go that well. Well not bad...but could've been better. I'm happy though...and have enough to play with.
This is what I received from the guru....


Sowed them all end of October and this is what I have now. The rest did not germinate.

Only 1 We1×Hn germinated..and i've planted it up already. Having a special affinity towards this lone survivor.

I've also potted some up using akadama...just to see how they respond.

 

[fredman]

Some interesting happenings with the first flowering.
This one had differently shaped petals over the tree

Same with this one

This one had a stripe...but only on the outside of the petal

Nothing radical I know...but enough to take note of, and to see what they do next year.

 

[Glaucus]

Any germination yet on the new seeds?

 

[fredman]

Yep they're all germinating. Some better than others...but that is normal I guess.
I did make a foolish mistake though. The first packet I sowed (We1×Kk) before putting sphagnum down. Don't know where my head was but in my over excitement, I sowed the seeds on to the peat/perlite layer...I haven't put down the sphagnum layer yet. It hit me when I dropped the last seed. Man I could strangle myself. I still spray them with water in the hope they'll germinate...but nothing yet...and I don't think they will.
I'll post some pics in the coming week as they're still to small in between the sphagnum.
I used up all the seeds, but with Kami no Yamakirin it was almost impossible. Boy there was plenty of them. I sowed another 2 trays...just to try and use up all of the packet...and still had seed left.
Don't tell anyone plz...but I had to throw some away...

 

[Glaucus]

Excellent! I believe I also had poor luck with the We1 x Karenko seeds. I believe they also germinated poorly for me, and then gnats are most of them.
So maybe it is the seeds themselves. They should germinate on peat/perlite. Too bad because I tried this cross two times now.
At some point I stopped cracking Kami no Yamakirin pods thinking you'd have no way to sow all of that. So good news those seeds actually do well.

 

[fredman]

I believe I also had poor luck with the We1 x Karenko seeds.

Seems I have one lone ranger germinated on the peat/perlite.

gnats are most of them.

Touch wood...i've never had a gnat problem...or not that I know of.
I do lately see small flies on the sphagnum when I lift the lids off the seedlings....and I can't help but wonder if I maybe have that issue in waiting.
I know you have problems with them.
I bought some Dyna-Gro Pro tekt yesterday. In the review section of it I saw this comment...and that made me think of you and your gnat issue.

 

[fredman]

The smell of Neem might keep the flies away....and deal with the larvae down there....

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I know you have problems with them.
I bought some Dyna-Gro Pro tekt yesterday. In the review section of it I saw this comment...and that made me think of you and your gnat issue.

View attachment 523788

Interesting, were the concentrations or mixing instructions included. Hesitate to try without these, given neem oil’s propensity to cause damage when exposed to sun light.

Best
DSD sends

 

[fredman]

Interesting, were the concentrations or mixing instructions included. Hesitate to try without these, given neem oil’s propensity to cause damage when exposed to sun light.

Best
DSD sends

Ah I love Neem. Its my go to whenever I see a potential problem brewing....especially on the white fly. I'm plagued by them every year.

The general dilution (for Neem) is usually 5ml/liter....but I always do a little less than that. I always only spray the inside of the trees, and the under sides of the leaves. My thinking is it adheres and the smell lingers...keeping them away. I not fimiliar of its propensity to cause damage when exposed to sunlight.

I did notice small flies on this tray of satsuki seedlings for some days now. I don't know if its gnat flies, but I sprayed Neem (half strength) yesterday....and they haven't been back. They are under a shade cloth though.


I have a huge bag of Neem pellets I use in the vegetable garden....as fertilizer and deterrent against the black birds digging in the mulch.
I've even used the pellets on the bonsai.....

 

[fredman]

This looks like a sure way to kill fungus gnats while they're in the ground doing the damage...

 

[Glaucus]

Oh, I already tried everything vs the gnats. I got mosquito bits before brexit happened as they were only for sale on the UK Amazon. And they didn't seem to have much of an effect.
The sticky traps work very well on the adult flies. Neem oil only works on adults as well.

The problem I had this season is that I was keeping lid overs on while one generation cycle happened. The adults are all trapped so they lay thousands of eggs and you get hundreds of larvae. They ate up the entire top layer so the sphagnum moss would completely different. And of course they didn't pass on azalea seedling roots.

I am now using nematodes every 2 or 3 weeks. I order them fresh. They seem to work better than mosquito bits. I also tried predatory mites. And this still wasn't enough, so I also got a maggot killer. Since it inhibits chitin synthesis, it should also prevent the larvae from building their skin. And even now, they still aren't all dead. I took off the covers way earlier now, hardening off the leaves.

In industry, they use a product that has a specific B.thuringiensis bacteria with a cryotoxin. It is the same one as in the mosquito bits. But I can't get that product as a consumer.
I at one point found a long list of products that could be used against fungus gnats, like 40+ products. So yeah I tried more than just watching a few youtube videos. I did that and included those in my original sowing guide.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Solid information.

The first batch of seeds tried here was a bust. imho too much wetness.

Haven’t had many issues with fungus gnats the past couple years since leaving the top and side vents partially open and the cover slightly askew. But only did two batches of seeds. The two sprays used to good effect are horticultural soap and a misting spray with 2 TBSP H2O2 in 1L water... later adding miracid to this spray. Also once established, let the media almost dry before soak watering.

Have done 7-800 cuttings in the past five years. Mostly azaleas, using a perlite/peat base. The same issue the first two years - too wet. Since doing the same as above, no big issues. Tried mosquito bits when things were bad… not so good.

Once the trays are outside the issue disappears.

Wondering, Mark if you ever tried to contact Joe Harris etc or one of the other big hybridizers on your side of the pond about their solutions? Or are they using banned products?

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Glaucus]

I never talked to James Harris. He passed in 2010 at age 80. I did chat with others. I believe gnats are always a problem indoors. The biggest solution is to let the surface dry out. Or put dry substrate on top of the peat.
Of course for seedlings that just germinated, that's not an option. It is pretty amazing how these gnats manage to survive and thrive, though.

The issue isn't too bad. One can manage the gnats. And if you remove lids and let them fly away, they can't lay eggs once you put the lid back on. I thought I would have no gnats because I froze solid all trays. And then I didn't open them at all for 3 to 4 weeks. And by them, they had a ton of them.

H2O2 alone also doesn't kill all of them. It may slow it down, but I am not positive. Problem is, H2O2 probably kills the nematodes too, and nematodes work better.

Industry products are Gnatrol SC (Bacillus Thurigiencus straub AM65-52), Nemasys F(Steinernema feltiae nematodes), and Decis EC (deltamethrin).
I did try a Dimilin product (diflubenzuron) aka the maggot/larvae growth inhibitor.

 

[fredman]

once established, let the media almost dry before soak watering.

Very much agree mate. Damp is good for growth. Wetness creates problems.

Well the flies are back...one day after I sprayed neem. I'm not going to worry about it though. I never had gnat problems in the past.
I will concentrate on not keeping them to wet for sure.

 

[fredman]

Some photos of the germinated seeds (first post above).
Some germinated better than others...as can be seen. Best of all by far is Kami no Yamakirin.

And 1 of Karenko is up....which i'm absolutely stoked about. Remember, I sowed the seed before I put the sphagnum down.
Its tiny...but it is moving.

I'm over the moon as I have plenty to play with.

 

[fredman]

Ah...notice the 6th photo. I rubbed the sphagnum through a kitchen sift...to get a thinner layer. I managed to get a layer of about ±2 mm...which is great as it will make it so much easier to lift with the toothpick.
Have to say it was a hassle rubbing through that sift...especially to do bigger quantities.

 

[Time Wizard]

What exactly is the process for growing azaleas from seed? I am curious as I managed to get some seeds from a handful of satsukis I bought last summer. Are you just sowing the seeds on a layer of sphagnum and keeping it moist? at what point do you separate the seedlings and how how do you do that?

 

[Glaucus]

@Time Wizard

Check this thread: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/glaucus-satsuki-azalea-farm.56775/
Yup, just sow om sphagnum and hope for the best. Kinda. It is fairly simple, though a bit challenging as the seedlings start out tiny.

@fredman Ah, I see that especially the Asuka no Homare seedlings already have true leaves, growing quite rapidly.
The germination rate of Asuka no Homare suggests that Asuka no Homare isn't a polyploid. While I believe Suiho, the sport of Asuka, is.
I guess that means most sports of Asuka and Asuka itself are also diploids (not polyploid).