Art vs Craft. Thoughts brought up by recent podcasts/casters. From someone who went to art school.

Bonsai is not art because a living tree is never finished. I believe anything considered art has to be finished.
Then you don't believe music is art? That dance isn't an art form?

Getting back to art and craft as complementary, I can give two musicians Mozart sheet music. Their level of expertise with the piano will dictate how I respond to their performance of it. I can give a beginner bonsai enthusiast and Bjorn the same tree to style. Their level of craft will determine the quality of the output... even though both outputs would be considered art. My kid in kindergarten produced a lot of art... but his craft level was low.
 
Recently I read a piece about a poor black woman who at 53 started painting on whatever material was available with scraps of paint. Whatever she could find for free as she was very poor. No teaching at all but just started painting. Today her art is in galleries and worth quite a bit. basically her craft was self generated. Apes also create art. So I've read.
The most recent animal artist sensation is Monkey the Belgian Malinois, originally trained as a movie dog and recently featured in People magazine. Omar, Monkey's trainer, regularly posts videos on Instagram and one night a week Monkey paints live to show how Omar trained him to paint. He has his own online gallery and has sold at least one painting for $15K. Not too shabby for a dog, whether you think it's art or craft.

Screenshot_20250510-001930.png
 
The most recent animal artist sensation is Monkey the Belgian Malinois, originally trained as a movie dog and recently featured in People magazine. Omar, Monkey's trainer, regularly posts videos on Instagram and one night a week Monkey paints live to show how Omar trained him to paint. He has his own online gallery and has sold at least one painting for $15K. Not too shabby for a dog, whether you think it's art or craft.

View attachment 624997
Has the dog painted anything other than what he was trained to paint? Has the dog impressed their own "thoughts and ideas" into the painting?
 
Has the dog painted anything other than what he was trained to paint? Has the dog impressed their own "thoughts and ideas" into the painting?
Monkey paints what Omar directs him to paint after thousands of hours of training. He typically paints in color and his work definitely rivals many amateur human artists, painting in acrylic paint. His main thoughts and ideas are about being rewarded with stopping to play ball.

Screenshot_20260103-173609~2.jpg
 
Then you don't believe music is art? That dance isn't an art form?

Getting back to art and craft as complementary, I can give two musicians Mozart sheet music. Their level of expertise with the piano will dictate how I respond to their performance of it. I can give a beginner bonsai enthusiast and Bjorn the same tree to style. Their level of craft will determine the quality of the output... even though both outputs would be considered art. My kid in kindergarten produced a lot of art... but his craft level was low.
The music ends, the dance ends. The living tree does not until dead. 😌
 
The music ends, the dance ends. The living tree does not until dead. 😌
The painting fades, the statue dissolves into dust...

I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.


A slight digression, but this touches on the Japanese aesthetic of Wabi Sabi, which appreciates impermanence and the passing of time. Patina on pots, an old tea cup, tools with noticeable wear... or for that matter the cherry blossom festival. A longing or sense of sadness that comes from accepting the impermanence of all things.

Getting deep into philosophy, but is art the object? Or the appreciation of it?
 
Last edited:
Someone mentioned dance as an art. My wife and I have been dancing at least once a week to Swamp Pop music for 30 years --- a local type of South Louisiana music. It's more of a style of music-- bluesy sax and ripping guitar solos. Think Fats Domino with more attitude. We've never taken lessons and could not even explain the steps we use. But there's not a month goes by that someone will come up to us and complement how much they enjoy watching us dance. We've seen dozens of people that have taken dance lessons to learn the "craft" and it is painfully obvious. My view is that art can't be taught, but craft can. Yes, you have to have some basic skills to perform any kind of art, but the creative part can't be taught. If someone asks "Why did you do that?" and you can't really answer, that's art.

One of our favorites.

 
I believe bonsai to be both:
Like a chef you must know how to use all your tools and have a dish in mind before you begin to prepare it. A person with specialized training or numerous years of experience will be able to prepare a proper dish better than someone with no experience in the kitchen.
Is cooking an art? -it can be!
Is bonsai an art? - it can be!

In my deep research this is still the best answer that I have found:IMG_0647.jpeg
A nice piece on bonsai here- to pass the cold winter blues-
 
Last edited:
Then you don't believe music is art? That dance isn't an art form?

Getting back to art and craft as complementary, I can give two musicians Mozart sheet music. Their level of expertise with the piano will dictate how I respond to their performance of it. I can give a beginner bonsai enthusiast and Bjorn the same tree to style. Their level of craft will determine the quality of the output... even though both outputs would be considered art. My kid in kindergarten produced a lot of art... but his craft level was low.jhnvn

This is a fantastic point and one I see so often misconstrued in these debates. Art does not become art when something is finished; it is not art only when it's hung in a gallery. There is no minimum quality level required for something to be art. You don't have to like it or agree with its message for it to be art.

Art is the process. From a finger painting or a rough sketch to a priceless Rembrandt, every step along the way is art. Art is rarely "finished". As an artist, you simply get to a point where you're sick of looking at the thing, or you run out of time/budget to continue on. Most artists will tell you there is more they wanted to do or could have done.

Bonsai Nut's explanation of art vs craft earlier in the thread is excellent as well. There is little meaningful differentiation between these words. I wrote a rant about this in another thread already, so I'll keep it brief: what is considered art or craft is mostly down to social standing. At least in Western culture, "fine arts" (painting, sculpture, etc) were generally taught to and produced for the consumption of wealthy people. Crafts (carpentry, weaving, etc) were generally more practical things working folks did to make a living or fulfill a basic need. Even by these standards, bonsai falls more in the art category than it does in craft. But again, you can not have art without craft, so it's not very productive to try and differentiate the two.

There isn't a clear distinction in Eastern culture either. Forging swords and knives, brewing sake, preparing tea, these are just a few examples of things revered for both their artistry and craft.

Going further, I'm not a fan of phrases like "pre-bonsai", as they require us to accept the notion that the tree exists in binary states. There is no magical switch that flips where your tree transforms from a pre-bonsai to a bonsai in training or to a "proper" bonsai. The entire act of growing a tree as bonsai is part of the process. It doesn't matter if it's well remified or if it's a tree worth showing. You're practicing the art form. Similarly, an idea for an artwork and an initial sketch for that work are both part of the process of creating art. They may be more distinct than the early and late stages of the tree, but the final painting does not exist without them, and when it comes to evaluating art, we don't push them off to the side and say only the painting is art; the rest is something else, craft, preparation, or whatever. No, every second of the process is art.

Intent is key. If you set out to produce a bonsai, a painting, or a sculpture, you are intentionally engaging in the process of art.

Lastly, it doesn't matter one way or another whether the tree is living. There is nothing in the Art Handbook that says works of art can not be living. In any case, we don't need to find a direct equivalent to another art form for it to be considered art.
 
Last edited:
It’s not a banana it’s a ticket into the club.
The neat thing about art is that it's not static. We're constantly reevaluating what art is and what is art. This is the brilliant stupidity of the banana. It flies in the face of our preconceived notions, doing so quite deliberately, which is what makes it art.

I won't fault anyone who proudly states that bananas taped to walls, are, in fact, not art. But art history is littered with the detritus of men who tried to narrowly define it.
 
If a professional musician gets paid to site read music for people to dance to jazz.
This is an interesting observation. I define art as any form of self expression. But what happens if it's not self expression but rather simply copying someone else's art? Is it art or skill that allows one to copy? Steve Vai, for example, is known to able to mimic basically any other guitarist's sound. No doubt that he is an incredibly talented artist when he is making his own music or putting a Vai spin on someone's else's music, but is it art if he is simply using his unbelievable skill to pantomime?
 
Horticulture is a scientific craft. Bonsai is a living artform which cannot exist without horticulture. Maybe my newbie naivete is showing, but it seems pretty simple to me:
The horticultural aspect can eventually be mastered, but is art ever mastered? Inspirational epiphany in designing a tree that complements its natural form can be learned ("developed" may be a more appropriate term), but it cannot exactly be taught.
Now, we can get into the weeds of "Who determines art?", "What makes it art?", etc, but the bare roots of it is bonsai is an artful scientific craft.
 
This is an interesting observation. I define art as any form of self expression. But what happens if it's not self expression but rather simply copying someone else's art? Is it art or skill that allows one to copy? Steve Vai, for example, is known to able to mimic basically any other guitarist's sound. No doubt that he is an incredibly talented artist when he is making his own music or putting a Vai spin on someone's else's music, but is it art if he is simply using his unbelievable skill to pantomime?

Literature and music are good reference points for bonsai, especially as it relates to whether art can be "alive". On one hand we can look at playing sheet music as copying someone else's work and come to various conclusions about the meaning or artistry in reproduction. On the other, we can look at prose, poetry, theater, and music as having a life long after their author has died. They exist in something like a continual state of rebirth, often being reinterpreted or reinvented over the decades and centuries. Like bonsai, if the works are good, they tend to be looked after and enjoyed for many generations to come, and if they are not, maybe they will only be seen or experienced by their creator. A good book or song is not dead after it's written.
 
Last edited:
This is an interesting observation. I define art as any form of self expression. But what happens if it's not self expression but rather simply copying someone else's art? Is it art or skill that allows one to copy? Steve Vai, for example, is known to able to mimic basically any other guitarist's sound. No doubt that he is an incredibly talented artist when he is making his own music or putting a Vai spin on someone's else's music, but is it art if he is simply using his unbelievable skill to pantomime?
My sentence you were quoting had more context of a point I was making. Debating the idea of how music was more artistic/creative and had less utility than say a woodworker making a chair. Site reading music is still an art with a major utility. It literally is the reason we can hear musicians from the past.

Also this gets at the heart of the concept of art in the modern day. And how it is so controversial. You said, “I define art as any form of self expression.” That’s not its definition. Art doesn’t require self expression. A form of self expression would be crying. Is that art?
 
Art doesn’t require self expression. A form of self expression would be crying. Is that art?

Yes, crying can be art or contribute to art in various contexts. The word "drama" immediately springs forth. See: film, theater, music, performance art (shudder), etc. These attempts to narrowly define art tend to fall apart when prodded with any level of scrutiny.

To the self-expression point, I'm not sure where I fall. Does art require self-expression? I'm sure if I put my mind to it, I could find examples where it doesn't apply, so probably not. But I think we're underestimating what self-expression encompasses - in reality, it's nearly any deliberate action we take. The choices that a person makes in their day-to-day life are inherently a form of self-expression. How else does one express themselves than through their actions?

Now, you might rightly say "is brushing my teeth a form of self-expression, and thus art?" Well, probably not. But I'm sure there's a French director somewhere who has made a short film about teeth brushing that is undeniably art. I think all roads lead back to artistic intent.

Perhaps we can simplify to something like: did you intend to produce an artistic work, and did you manage to express yourself? If so, it's probably art.

Now, please excuse me as I die from being a prentious twat.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom