Acacia Erubescens (Blouhaak) wiring and pruning advice.

[YukiShiro]

"What do you think the chances are that buds are going to pop there" on the trunk if I chop..100%, if you look closely it's already happening without a trunk chop don't you see the buds?

this is not a personal attack Fredman , I just think you are giving this guy erroneous info...
I apologise for being a straight forward person.

 

[fredman]

Repeating.... "Take a look at the 1st pic of the black monkey above" You see any buds on the main trunk and inner parts of the primaries? I'm sure that tree wont form new ones in that areas. Further out yes...

Your pic is of the Blouhaak...the second pic. I saw that buds at the time, but they aren't going to be useful in shaping a umbrella from. The trunk has to be removed and started again. Good for him that the Blouhaak does bud closer and on the trunk, though from the little bit i've seen, not all Acacias does that regularly.

I have to bow to your superior knowledge on them though, as you are between them, and I have very limited experience really. I started with them 15yrs ago and then left right after I started. Seems what I read and heard then, is different from what you say. I have only small ones now, so i'll be learning as I go.

No I didn't take it as a personal attack, but I have to say I am taken aback by your attitude. Right from your first response you had an almost discourteous approach, though you might not realise it. I appreciate your direct approach, but you need to throw some diplomacy in there to....

 

[Dorian Fourie]

Let me add my thoughts into this.

I have had both species of trees albeit the Blouhaak gave itself up to the bonsai gods. I blame myself for that because of my inferior knowledge with the species.

Looking at the Blouhaak of abNormalza, there are loads of buds all over the trunk so it definitiley shows that it is a healthy tree. I would not do any work on it now as the cold is starting to set in here in SA and any serious work could kill the tree. When the weather starts to warm up and one can see the buds starting to form, I would repot it into a much larger pot with much better soil, do a trunk chop and regrow it into an umbrella shape should that be the way to he wants to grow it. It is one of the hardest lessons that I still sometimes struggle with is to cut back on a bonsai to start the process again. But slowly but surely I am realising that in the long run it will make the difference in having a good bonsai.

With regards to the black monkey thorn I would do the following. Again no work now till the buds start to break. Then I would also repot it and sink that tangle of roots under the soil, thereby leaving a smaller gap between the top of the soil and the lowest branches. I would shorten the tap root too but leave enough of the root system for the tree to survive (Vague I know but I would be working with the tree to see how much to leave etc) I would personally start to wire the lower branches into a upwards position so that as they grow they become part of the canopy.

I would be using this image as my guide line.

Or maybe even this one.




I have done a very quick virtual of what I would do with the tree, with the brown being the soil level


I would then also do a severe cut back on the long branches as per the following method that I picked up by a guy called Lennard. Cut just above new buds that are breaking (Purple line) so as to leave some part for die back.
The bud will grow out thus increasing your ramification and overall structure of the tree.



But that is the way I would do it. It doesn't mean it is right but that process has worked for me and that is how I see the tree.

Thoughts?

 

[YukiShiro]

LOL I need somebody throwing hand grenades at me when I get like this

Let me tel you what I've observed, remember that knob thorn you thought I'm styling like a pine over at study group? It budded from the trunk each spring and I had to pinch them off (RIP, frost), I have a white monkey thorn that does the same but it does so throughout the year. my black monkey thorns did the same(RIP 3, frost) one was 14 years old.I don't think camel thorn will do this but I wouldn't know since I only have season old seedlings atm (6) and never worked with them before, my brother has 2 that's really nice. All the species from the warmer(in winter) part of the country will act the same(mostly).

so his black monkey thorn should be planted deeper to cover up the roots, and into a bigger pot, cut out a big hole in the bottom and let a root escape to get some girth, same for the blou haak. will take 4 years to get a nice bottom trunk going, then chop and grow next section. It's raw stock, and can't be judged as lost causes just because its raw stock, he has to build the character himself, it's a blank canvas. sure it takes time...the object is not to press the nitros button and get a world class bonsai in 10 seconds flat. doing bonsai from raw stock has it's own rewards, takes longer than yamadori or pre bonsai stock, but is a great learning experience and really fun if you like being proud of the bonsai to be being completely your own "sculpture". I may be preaching to the choir here since you are growing from seed? but I really do not understand your negativity towards these young acacia. I bet I could create the start to decent open umbrella or pierneefs in 3 years with these(barring the fact that blou haak is a finicky species), given 10 years I'd make even better ones

best regards
Herman

 

[YukiShiro]

do a trunk chop and regrow it

maybe let it grow to gain some girth in the trunk first? and if you prune do not prune right after a bud, prune halfway in between nodes

regards
Herman

 

[YukiShiro]

albeit the Blouhaak gave itself up to the bonsai gods

Hi Dorian,

did it bud out after last winter?

best regards
Herman

 

[Dorian Fourie]

Hi Herman

maybe let it grow to gain some girth in the trunk first? and if you prune do not prune right after a bud, prune halfway in between nodes

I would personally trunk chop it now and then grow it out and let the new growth thicken up the trunk whilst you style. The only reason I say that is because I am starting to believe making the sacrifices earlier reap the longer rewards in the long run. Also if it done correctly and one has loads of buds around the chop, it will assist greatly with closing up the wound over the next few years as all the growth will be happening. But either way will work.

did it bud out after last winter?

It actually died during winter and by the time Spring came around it was dry enough for fire wood. I am actually not too sorry about it because I actually had no clue about it and I was not happy with really anything about it.

Sometimes I just get like that with some of my projects. The other day I just pulled up a privet that I was fooling around with and threw it in the bin. I just looked at it and could not be bothered if it lived or died and had no interest to pursue it. So out it went.

 

[YukiShiro]

Hi Herman


I would personally trunk chop it now and then grow it out and let the new growth thicken up the trunk whilst you style. The only reason I say that is because I am starting to believe making the sacrifices earlier reap the longer rewards in the long run. Also if it done correctly and one has loads of buds around the chop, it will assist greatly with closing up the wound over the next few years as all the growth will be happening. But either way will work.


It actually died during winter and by the time Spring came around it was dry enough for fire wood. I am actually not too sorry about it because I actually had no clue about it and I was not happy with really anything about it.

Sometimes I just get like that with some of my projects. The other day I just pulled up a privet that I was fooling around with and threw it in the bin. I just looked at it and could not be bothered if it lived or died and had no interest to pursue it. So out it went.

No loss, privets are a invasive species here, they pop up everywhere. blou haak is finicky yes...

chopping now will set him back two growing seasons before the trunk will start thickening up again, since the sacrifices(new) will need to be about two thirds the thickness of the trunk before it will start to girth up the trunk again, and the tree will need to deal with this large wound upsetting the sap flow.

 

[fredman]

remember that knob thorn you thought I'm styling like a pine over at study group

Yeah I remember. So that's why you snapped your bridges at me? You never forgot that did ya? Figured you'll even the scores huh...? Well I apologise for that my friend. At the time I was raw and VERY against growing any tree outside its natural growth habits, and I couldn't understand how someone could do that to a tree.... Had a few run ins here to. I've since learnt a lot especially here at Bnut...
I'm actually still very much of that thinking, but mellowed greatly towards others doing that. Its a personal thing and non of my business. Each to his own. I came to realise that most people see bonsai as a art and the trees are merely their canvas. I see it very different. Mostly because I suck at art. I see trees as a wonder of nature and that's where it ends for me
Anyway i'm sorry to hear you lost it. I was thinking of that tree. Has actually told my babies on occasion not to worry, as I wont put dresses on them. I'll make proud natural looking Acacias from them...

 

[YukiShiro]

NO NO nothing of the sort, was referring to it like that so that you'd remember exactly what tree i was talking about lol

 

[fredman]

Gotcha

 

[YukiShiro]

I was thinking of that tree. Has actually told my babies on occasion not to worry, as I wont put dresses on them. I'll make proud natural looking Acacias from them...

rotfl

 

[YukiShiro]

Gotcha

you know,

I really miss that tree...I'm moving over to hardier acacia though...

robust thorn and camel thorn, will see how it goes. white monkey thorns seems to be okay at least

 

[fredman]

Yeah robusta is tough but I never liked their thick growth at the tips. That will be a problem with bonsai wont it?
Camel thorn will take a few life times, but you're still young and restless...
I'll die a slow death if I lost so many oldish Acacia trees through frost. Why did you not protect them until the danger of frost was over?

 

[YukiShiro]

Yeah robusta is tough but I never liked their thick growth at the tips. That will be a problem with bonsai wont it?
Camel thorn will take a few life times, but you're still young and restless...
I'll die a slow death if I lost so many oldish Acacia trees through frost. Why did you not protect them until the danger of frost was over?

didn't have any space to protect them indoors so they stayed outside covered in frost cloth , since put up a poly tunnel 9x4 meters so going to be ready for this winter , everything was fine until we neared the end of winter and got one really cold night -10 Celsius i think, underground water pipes froze etc etc and black frost got to the acacias....lost quite a few other trees as well halving our collection, the Fiance didn't want to go near a bonsai until last weekend when i encouraged her to go pick up the pieces and face the music she slip potted a few acacia and celtis and wired a juni , this spring I'm going nuts collecting wild olive, kierie klapper, celtis africana, and river bushwillow, I have more space open now lol

best regards
Herman

 

[fredman]

Ai ja Jaai. Yeah it always catches you unawares.
I've got a poly tunnel now for the last two years. Love it...it gives me 4 extra months of growth in a year. Two at the end of winter, and two now before winter sets to cold. Don't use it in summer though. The temp rises over 50C in there. I melted some succulents in there over this summer....
Yeah that is a good move to set one of them up.

 

[YukiShiro]

I positioned the tunnel so that half of it would receive shade throughout the day from a extremely large wit stinkhout. The Fiance grows orchids in there so shade is paramount. also grow a lot of vegies and different types of peppers and chilly peppers in there

 

[Dorian Fourie]

everything was fine until we neared the end of winter and got one really cold night -10 Celsius i think,

Have to agree with you on that one cold night. It is definitely colder out by you then me even though we are not that far from each other.

I found the winter extremely mild. At not stage did I have frost cover or even put my trees indoors. But that one night killed off all the branches of a Celtis that my father-in-law left me and this whole summer I have trying to nurse it back to health.

 

[fredman]

I positioned the tunnel so that half of it would receive shade throughout the day

Yes its all about location. Sunlight is paramount...that and managing the temp with the vents. I had huge trees next door on the counsel property the first year. They blocked the sun until mid day, so the tunnel stayed cold. I poisoned one tree over winter... to my surprise they removed them all. From then on it gets full sun until mid day. That made all the difference. What I love most about it, is that smell when I open the door....that smell that hits you when you walk into a forest...
One problem I find is pests... because of the lack of circulation.

one cold night

Yeah there is always that ONE cold night. We had a set up on a plot in SA, where we grew and supplied big native trees. That ONE night thing wreaked havoc for us on a few occasions....

 

[braam2105]

Hi Herman,

i just stumbled across this thread. I would love to get an update on those camel thorns of yours. I currently have young tree (probably between 3 and 5 years old) and a few month old seedlings. I’m very interested in hearing if a camel thorn will bud out after a trunk chop.

best regards
Braam