A serious discussion about building intrest in bonsai for the 15-35 crowd

[Smoke]

Takes 3 to 5 years to master -watering -

Why do people keep spreading that myth. A person can learn to water in a day. A Japanese master is probably trying to teach you something else and uses watering as the tool.

Don't be the tool that perpetuates the myth......

There is absolutely nothing done in bonsai that can't be learned in one day. It may take weeks to master, or it may take years. For some it will never happen.

 

[Smoke]

I'm sorry...I should have been more succinct.

If you can't learn to water in one day, your a F*&ing idiot!

 

[M. Frary]

I'm sorry...I should have been more succinct.

If you can't learn to water in one day, your a F*&ing idiot!

My wife learned in about 5 minutes.

 

[Delrious]

Documentary filmmaker and first time poster here who recently gained an interest in Bonsai. People (especially younger people) who get into hobbies/careers like photography, aquaculture and bonsai want to excel and have the possibility of being the best and/or unique. If they feel that there is the possibility that they can attain this and they have a strong curiosity, everything else becomes easy. The technical skills required will become self-evident and/or easily acquired through research and perseverance.

You see this in the photography world all the time, young people pick up the hobby and in no time are excelling at their craft and become professionals. Many of the older artists (mostly non-pro’s) will tell them that there are “rules” to follow in order to create beautiful photography, berate them for shooting without permits, laugh at their experiments, etc…However, the reality is that if they are motivated and have a unique perspective, many of these kids persevere, develop their own styles, and within a few years become some of the most talented photographers in the industry. Seeing this happen is what inspires other young people to take up the hobby.

I’m sure that there are a lot of people who are reading this who are thinking “but Bonsai requires so much time and patience” and just assume that younger people aren’t capable of it…which is ridiculous. Younger people are some of the most capable and motivated people out here. They’ve still got that spark and a lifetime to keep it going.

If increasing popularity of the art form is the goal, we should encourage new people to build on the existing foundation and push the boundaries of the art form rather than pigeonholing them into workshop culture which tends to make people play by other peoples rules and creates a standard for aesthetic (which is the opposite of creativity in my opinion). This will create more emerging artists and art that will in turn increase the popularity of the art form and then the cycle will feed on itself.

 

[justBonsai]

Documentary filmmaker and first time poster here who recently gained an interest in Bonsai. People (especially younger people) who get into hobbies/careers like photography, aquaculture and bonsai want to excel and have the possibility of being the best and/or unique. If they feel that there is the possibility that they can attain this and they have a strong curiosity, everything else becomes easy. The technical skills required will become self-evident and/or easily acquired through research and perseverance.

You see this in the photography world all the time, young people pick up the hobby and in no time are excelling at their craft and become professionals. Many of the older artists (mostly non-pro’s) will tell them that there are “rules” to follow in order to create beautiful photography, berate them for shooting without permits, laugh at their experiments, etc…However, the reality is that if they are motivated and have a unique perspective, many of these kids persevere, develop their own styles, and within a few years become some of the most talented photographers in the industry. Seeing this happen is what inspires other young people to take up the hobby.

I’m sure that there are a lot of people who are reading this who are thinking “but Bonsai requires so much time and patience” and just assume that younger people aren’t capable of it…which is ridiculous. Younger people are some of the most capable and motivated people out here. They’ve still got that spark and a lifetime to keep it going.

If increasing popularity of the art form is the goal, we should encourage new people to build on the existing foundation and push the boundaries of the art form rather than pigeonholing them into workshop culture which tends to make people play by other peoples rules and creates a standard for aesthetic (which is the opposite of creativity in my opinion). This will create more emerging artists and art that will in turn increase the popularity of the art form and then the cycle will feed on itself.

I have been exploring my options to see if I can make bonsai a sustainable career for myself. I've spoken to many people and some professionals to get their take and perspective. Apprenticeship is a large consideration but I'd have to see how viable it'd be for me. Bonsai as a livelihood is difficult no doubt. Developing trees into bonsai is a time intensive process that takes many years to provide a return--and a small one at that. Consequently you have to be creative and explore many avenues that will return a profit.

Owen Reich gave me a call the other day and gave me lots of insight on this matter, both as a professional and his experience with apprenticeship. There was one thing he said that I hadn't put into consideration before. Apprenticing in Japan has become increasingly popular and there are many more apprenticed bonsai professionals in the states compared to in the past. Further exemplified by living in California. While succesfully completing an apprenticeship is another matter, sustaining your professional career and lifestyle is a challenge. You are essentially competing in a saturated market where an apprenticeship background alone isn't enough to make you stand out.

I've thought about this a lot and have been trying to find a niche I can fulfill or better yet, something entirely unique that has not been done before. I'm a firm believer in that if you copy others you will never be as good as them. I imagine there must be some new, unique approach that I can apply towards bonsai that will enable me be successful. I try to take from the experience of others to create something new.

I'm fortunate that I've been able to get into bonsai young and to have the resources to acquire material and knowledge. I will be graduating from college next year. My tentative plan is to work after graduation for at least a few years and from that principal amount of money, see if I can pursue bonsai professionally. For now I will continue to plan and think on a unique approach and business model.

 

[sorce]

Seems 10 thousand cuttings may be the horse....
And this is the Cart....

Or is it the other way around?

Either way....

The horse is a pony...

So I guess you do have a couple 20 years to drum up people to sell 10k cuttings to...

Sorce

 

[Woody Carverton]

Riley,

reality - Ryan's education had to be paid for.After you learn what he knows for free [ what stops you from charging when you teach ? ]

In reality, No it wasn't. He was paid for doing it. As someone who has apprenticed in their youth I can tell you first hand that apprentices are paid. Apprentices are given a place to stay, and the equivalent to about half of minimum wage to pay for food and such. Being an apprentice is a job, not an education even though you learn about the job while you are doing it.

That being said, it still does not mean he should not charge for the Mirai live. It costs money to pay camera crews, host a web platform, pay video editors, etc. True, he is over charging for what is delivered. But he will get away with it because there is a market for it in the older crowd. It will do little to nothing for the younger crowd as the cost is probably half of their weekly salary for a years subscription and they would rather spend it on buying material.

Truthfully it is inevitable that sooner or later all that material will be leaked in some sort of torrent download anyways and Ryan knows that so I cant blame him for trying to make his money while he can in the beginning to recover the funds for cameras, mic's, lighting, and all the other hardware he had to purchase to make Mirai Live.

 

[M. Frary]

It costs money to pay camera crews

They follow me around for free all the time.

 

[Woody Carverton]

Seems 10 thousand cuttings may be the horse....
And this is the Cart....

Or is it the other way around?

Either way....

The horse is a pony...

So I guess you do have a couple 20 years to drum up people to sell 10k cuttings to...

Sorce

What does 10,000 cuttings have to do with anything? It's apparent that you have very selective memory recall. Sure I have 10's of thousands of cuttings, seedlings, and under developed stock. I also have hundreds of specimens, and thousands of pre-bonsai waiting for wire. What your selective memory seems to have forgotten is that NONE of them are for sale. Nor will they ever be. I am not in the selling trees business, nor will I ever be. For that matter I am in no business at all. 100% loss on every dollar i have spent.

My agenda if you can call it that is simple. As each generation passes they become less driven and aware of their surroundings and impact on the planet. Every generation becomes more driven by instant gratification no matter the cost. Half of the youth in this county are not eve aware of where their food comes from let alone the horrible things they are ingesting because they so blindly trust that "they wouldn't be allowed to sell it if it was poison". Every generation becomes more blind with consumerist tunnel vision, They get that newest iPhone and 6 months later when the newest iteration of it comes out they have to have it, not because theirs is bad, but because they must consume, worse is that most of them, their parents are the ones paying for it so they don't even understand the true cost of such wasteful insanity.

Bonsai teaches people patience. It helps one develop an understanding that you get what you put in and that you have to work towards true greatness. It makes people slow down and look at nature. 80% of the planet suffers from a very real disease called tree blindness, unaware of the ecosystem around them that allows them to breath. Bonsai is the cure, it teaches them to slow down and look, and understand.

Bonsai is a tool.

Therefore;

There is no horse, and there is no cart.

There is a carrot, and s stick.

The stick is what hits these kids in the face when they can eat the air they breath, die before they reach their 20's from any number of things they ingest that cause a litany of illnesses like cancer, or worse a global extinction event when this planet decides it has had enough and decides to pull the handle and flush away the infection that is ripping it apart.

Bonsai is the carrot. It is all about slow down, pay attention, and be aware. People can argue all they want, but nobody will ever convince me that Bonsai is not the PERFECT tool to start re-shaping what is wrong with the majority of youth on this planet. There are other ways, but bonsai is my medium of conveyance.


So.........


WELCOME TO CRAZY !!!!!!

 

[M. Frary]

NONE of them are for sale.

What are you going to do with them then?
Give them away?
The majority of youth could give a shit about bonsai.
Because you said it first.
A tree ain't an iPhone.
It isn't dinging every few minutes with alerts to hold their short little attention spans.
They need to be rewarded now.
Not 5 years or more down the road.
Bonsai will never change that kind of thing in younger people.
They live for the minute,not the day.

 

[Anthony]

Fast Bonsai ----------- ground grow / tile if needed in a colander.
1 to 3 years. Also first 6 branches.
3 to 5 years needed to refine.

Say 8 to 10 years to Design completion.

11 Years -------------- start a new design.

Al, though I hit the - like - button for you. I have reservations about learning to water in a day.
Especially since I believe the term watering is used to step in for the term - Horticulture.
3 to 5 years to master the Horticultural aspect.

The Art aspect even longer, especially since I see that old trend of ------------- I have it naturally and we goh do we own tings.
Which is extremely prevalent down here.
Leads to cookie cutter work.

Good Day
Anthony

* Once I Gogeerah was an eggling/ sapling, I ate people rapidly and without enjoyment of flavour,
NOW I savor the experience.

 

[M. Frary]

I ate people rapidly and without enjoyment of flavour,

But there's so many people and so little time!

 

[Woody Carverton]

What are you going to do with them then?
Give them away?

That is for my daughter to decide when she is old enough for the most part. For now they are for my personal enjoyment, entertainment, and to keep my old bones busy so i don't just sit and rot in a rocking chair until my ashes get put into a jar.

The majority of youth could give a shit about bonsai.
Because you said it first.
A tree ain't an iPhone.
It isn't dinging every few minutes with alerts to hold their short little attention spans.

The majority of youth are idiots, no arguing that.

They need to be rewarded now.
Not 5 years or more down the road.

That is because they are taught to be that way. You can teach a monkey to wear a dress and have a proper tea party, but once the dress comes off, its still going to fling it's own crap. It's nature.

Bonsai will never change that kind of thing in younger people.
They live for the minute,not the day.

That is not true, more and more parents are seeing the error of their ways. Places like kids unplugged and tech-free camps are booking out years in advance these days with parents who realized they have destroyed entire generations of our species. There are even places like camp grounded which is for adults who realized they were raised wrong with digital babysitters and a screen as their best friend. Bonsai can fit perfectly into that same educational premise.

 

[Dav4]

What does 10,000 cuttings have to do with anything? It's apparent that you have very selective memory recall. Sure I have 10's of thousands of cuttings, seedlings, and under developed stock. I also have hundreds of specimens, and thousands of pre-bonsai waiting for wire. What your selective memory seems to have forgotten is that NONE of them are for sale. Nor will they ever be. I am not in the selling trees business, nor will I ever be. For that matter I am in no business at all. 100% loss on every dollar i have spent.

My agenda if you can call it that is simple. As each generation passes they become less driven and aware of their surroundings and impact on the planet. Every generation becomes more driven by instant gratification no matter the cost. Half of the youth in this county are not eve aware of where their food comes from let alone the horrible things they are ingesting because they so blindly trust that "they wouldn't be allowed to sell it if it was poison". Every generation becomes more blind with consumerist tunnel vision, They get that newest iPhone and 6 months later when the newest iteration of it comes out they have to have it, not because theirs is bad, but because they must consume, worse is that most of them, their parents are the ones paying for it so they don't even understand the true cost of such wasteful insanity.

Bonsai teaches people patience. It helps one develop an understanding that you get what you put in and that you have to work towards true greatness. It makes people slow down and look at nature. 80% of the planet suffers from a very real disease called tree blindness, unaware of the ecosystem around them that allows them to breath. Bonsai is the cure, it teaches them to slow down and look, and understand.

Bonsai is a tool.

Therefore;

There is no horse, and there is no cart.

There is a carrot, and s stick.

The stick is what hits these kids in the face when they can eat the air they breath, die before they reach their 20's from any number of things they ingest that cause a litany of illnesses like cancer, or worse a global extinction event when this planet decides it has had enough and decides to pull the handle and flush away the infection that is ripping it apart.

Bonsai is the carrot. It is all about slow down, pay attention, and be aware. People can argue all they want, but nobody will ever convince me that Bonsai is not the PERFECT tool to start re-shaping what is wrong with the majority of youth on this planet. There are other ways, but bonsai is my medium of conveyance.


So.........


WELCOME TO CRAZY !!!!!!

I wish you luck in your endeavor, I truly do. I just don't see how ANYTHING can change the issues you have with our society, let alone bonsai, which is such an off the beaten path pastime in of itself. For what it's worth, I agree with your assessment of what's happening to us as a people and am saddened by it. Unfortunately, I don't believe you can overcome the constant messages to consume and spend. You can place the blame with the banks, big business, and the government... anybody remember when we were told by the powers that be that the only way to get our country out of the recession brought on by the banking/housing market collapse of 2008-09 was spend more money?? The cards have been stacked against us for a long time and it really is a losing battle... but I still wish you luck.

 

[Woody Carverton]

I wish you luck in your endeavor, I truly do. I just don't see how ANYTHING can change the issues you have with our society, let alone bonsai, which is such an off the beaten path pastime in of itself. For what it's worth, I agree with your assessment of what's happening to us as a people and am saddened by it. Unfortunately, I don't believe you can overcome the constant messages to consume and spend. You can place the blame with the banks, big business, and the government... anybody remember when we were told by the powers that be that the only way to get our country out of the recession brought on by the banking/housing market collapse of 2008-09 was spend more money?? The cards have been stacked against us for a long time and it really is a losing battle... but I still wish you luck.

Of course bonsai isn't going to be a miracle cure for all that's wrong with the youth of this planet. But it can be for a segment of that group. The trick is going to be in getting the info in front of them and letting natural selection weed out the ones that wont make it. If even 1 out of every thousand youth that were introduced to bonsai stuck with it even as a hobby, that's 1,000 per million youth that wont be consumerist blistering idiots that may have been in the future.

Truth is, this thread was started to get ideas on how to appeal to those younger crowd and has now turned into pages of nonconstructive debate. Kind of like whipping a dead horse. I got what i came for in the first few pages of this thread which is all that matters to me at least. Past that, it is sheer entertainment only at this point. I find it amusing how fired up people get about their opinions especially ones that have no foundations, so at this point this is kind of a substitute for watching the T.V. It rained this morning so we didn't have to water which gave me some time for an extra pot of coffee to wake up with so I checked up on the thread to see if anything else constructive was suggested.

 

[M. Frary]

Kind of like whipping a dead horse

We aim to please.

 

[Anthony]

Earth over populated must start Nuclear war and return the balance.
First kill all the Bonsai
and Bonsaists.

Next make secret agreements with how many of the poor to remove, like it was back in the old days.

Good Day
The voice of doom.

 

[Woody Carverton]

Earth over populated must start Nuclear war and return the balance.
First kill all the Bonsai
and Bonsaists.

Next make secret agreements with how many of the poor to remove, like it was back in the old days.

Good Day
The voice of doom.

Wow guy, i want some of what your smokin

 

[Smoke]

If even 1 out of every thousand youth that were introduced to bonsai stuck with it even as a hobby, that's 1,000 per million youth that wont be consumerist blistering idiots that may have been in the future.

I've been doing bonsai for 34 years, stuck with it and I still think your a blistering idiot....your hypothesis is flawed.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I've been doing bonsai for 34 years, stuck with it and I still think your a blistering idiot....your hypothesis is flawed.

Agreed...some will be doctors,lawyers and such.

If even 1 out of every thousand youth that were introduced to bonsai stuck with it even as a hobby, that's 1,000 per million youth that wont be consumerist blistering idiots that may have been in the future.

Wow, as one who deals with youth myself...that is quite offensive that your outlook on them is to that degree. Mind you I didn't wade through the previous posts. I did back track to be certain you were the one who thought so highly of the youth to wish to get them involved...then to read that.

My own boys have no interest in the hobby...but, they have goals and are going places when they become adults through chosen careers and working to reach that goal. As are many of the youth I work with.

I am not letting your opinion eat my lunch...we are night and day apart when we look at our youth...and of their future.