A Ruckus !

sawgrass said:
Thanks, Thams... I am quite use to no one every posting on my tree threads, this is
not the issue. In the rare occasion that one actually does, it is usually to try and tell me
what I am doing is wrong anyways. Which is quite funny, cause I have never heard of so
many "wrong" things in any other art form as there are in Bonsai.

It just never ceases to amaze me though... How no one can talk about and have a serious
discussion about trees, that's all.
Click to expand...

Generally I have found the people who say you "styled your tree wrong" are usually the less experienced people who read John Naka's book (probably for free on the Internet... Just saying...) once, and found a part of your tree that "broke a rule", so they assume that means it is wrong! I think most people with experience know the rules are nothing more than guidelines and completely open to artistic interpretation. As long as the tree you created is satisfying to you personally, you didn't do it "wrong" IMO. Now, people will almost always say what they would have done differently, but why else would we post images if we didn't want other's opinions on what to do with the tree?
 
sawgrass said:
I know, it is just kinda funny, if I had bought a tree and imported it
From Japan, I would be getting a thousand likes and comments...

For me, this just shows where we are in Bonsai in the states...
We just can't seem to progress from the typical back branch front
Branch approach. If a tree does not meet a certain criteria, or strays
From the typical norm, it just isn't good. We sadly will never get
anywhere in Bonsai if we don't start pushing our trees and our Ideas
Of what makes a good tree and begin to venture out in new directions.
We will only be good at plagiarizing others trees at best, for in order to
progress in any art, one must always take the art further than where it was
When they first received it.
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I think that basically you are saying that people's tastes need to change so that they like other things than what they currently like. Sort of like saying " I didnt like the looks of the new Charger when it came out, but now that I've had a few years to stop wretching when I see it, it seems OK to me now." Not really of the "dont fix it if it aint broke" ilk, but I like to see trees when I look at bonsai more than I like to see "arboristic scupture". Everyone is different. You clearly like to be more artistic with trees than some people. And so that no one's feelings get hurt, if they dont care for your tree they dont say anything. Based on history those kinds of comments can lead to more than a discussion of bonsai. So, instead of redesigning things, what about mastering things that go into the trees that we all currently have? Do what we do better, not just different for different's sake.
 
sawgrass said:
Thanks for your reply.
No, what I am saying is I that I am just at a loss... maybe it is just a comfort thing, I mean I see folks
Like Ryan Niel, Kimura, Min Lo, Robert Stevens, and hundreds of other folks from all around the globe
Striving to try and express themselves in this art form. They are looking at their material and asking
Themselves how can I do something that perhaps no one has seen... how can I create something unique ???
How can I do a tree that is different than any other tree that I have already done ??? For what would be the
Purpose of just doing the same thing over and over again ??? How as an artist would I progress if I did ???

So, I see them pushing boundaries of what can be done with a tree. I see them cutting, bending, contorting
Branches, I see them lifting trees and looking for different angles to plant them at, to give a different perspective
To the tree. I see them always searching for a better way to make the most of what is within the tree. I see
Them pushing boundaries for what is acceptable in Bonsai, and in essence creating new rules. Then I think to
Myself, this is what Bonsai is all about... this is what all art is about.

That in order for me to get better, in order for me to even have a chance of trying to make what one might consider
A world class tree, I must do the same... That in order for anyone here to do this, they must do the
Same... So, I am sorry that I just don't agree with your beliefs of personal taste. I think taste is all
Relative to one's exposure... I think taste is a learned emotion and I just don't get how everyone here
At the Nut, can make definitive decisions of what they like and do not like, especially seeing that there are
No Bonsai masters here, I think this type of thinking closes one off too, and in my opinion, tells me
One is not progressing. Because if one was, one's taste should be constantly changing as new learning is
Being taken in. No one should like the same things they did when they first started bonsai, or even what they
Liked a year ago... they should in theory change as one gets better.

Now, I understand not everyone is going to like what I am doing, and that's fine... they don't have too.
But, when I get replies on an unfinished tree like your tree looks un-natural, it has a butt like J-Lo, or that
I shouldn't tilt a straight tree, it's like really ??? And a light just switches off, for as arrogant as this may sound,
It just makes me think this peron does not really know what they are talking about... for if they did, they
Wouldn't be saying such things... cause why can't you ? These things are done all the time in the world of
Bonsai, and as far as being un-natural, one can easily do a Google image search and within a minute or
Two, find a pic of a tree in nature doing the exact same thing.

So, I don't know what to think... or how to respond.
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I understand what you're saying and your opinion is valid. BUT, I think there's room for everyone's tastes in bonsai. You said that everyone's opinions about trees and stylings are constantly evolving -- so wouldn't you expect to get a variety of answers depending upon where people are in their bonsai journey? What you find acceptable or even preferable for bonsai may not resonate with others in the same way. Sometime I feel like you're expecting an expert, bonsai master critique of your trees on a public forum. It's natural that you'll agree with some comments, but disagree with others. But you can't get upset with people when you ask for comments and you get them. Maybe try explaining why you disagree with some of the comments individually to HELP people that you think need more experience.

I promise I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. I just don't think you can get upset when people don't comment on your trees, but then berate people when they do.
 
sawgrass said:
View attachment 57384
Thought a virt of where I plan on possibly going with the tree
might help with the visualization.
Thanks
Click to expand...

This does look better to my eye, if the tree cooperates, you will have made art. I am not a big rules guy, so my comment was about the image created, in the photo # I cited. The 'actual' images I'm just not relating to. "Art" may or may not be accessible to everyone, the actual images are not working for me yet. Hopefully time & the tree will cooperate and you will end up with a really different than run of the mill tree.

The proposals by others were more conventional, and more likely to yield a conventional image.

It is good to "think outside the pot."
 
I rarely comment on any "out of the normal" threads. I am of the thought that this is "Art" and Art varies from location to location of ANY type. Myself I feel it is great that we have the freedom to do as we see as artists and are not subject to cookie cutter rules. I will be doing some collections this Spring and they are going to be difficult not because they are any harder then any other collection. They will be difficult because the way I "think" they will progress in a short three years will be beautiful but not cookie cutter. To do that requires at least two years of preparation before the collection. Do I care if someone tells me that does not comply - nope and I will never. Think about that absolutely Beautiful "Twin Trunk Cascade" that John G displays - THAT my friends is ART...

Grimmy
 
I personally like this tree and what you have done with it. I can understand somewhat of what you are saying, but i think in my case its because im a newbie. I know people here like for you to try to research yourself and i do, but when i cant find the answer or i find it and its confusing to me, i would like some help. And i know alot of people ask questions and get answers then do their own thing anyway and dont listen to the advise they have been given. My self i have stated in other post's when i ask for advise i have a notebook right beside my computer and i write every suggestion that anyone gives me down to try on the potential tree, I will try their suggestions first, as they do have more experience than i do and i respect that, but sometimes i see alot of posting going on and if i post a question, it seems no one wants to take the time to answer. I dont know maybe its because i have younger trees right now and nothing can be done with them, but im about to fix that this spring. Anyway i'm done preaching now. Great tree.

Rick
 
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