A lot of work ahead of me...white pine

[Pals_id]

Hello,

I received a white pine seedling in a 6" growing pot a few days ago and it is clear that I will have a lot of work ahead of me if this is going to work as a bonsai. I ordered from a popular online nursery catering to bonsai enthusiasts, not seeing the tree I was going to receive in advance. I will include a couple pictures.

It looks like a branch split off from the main trunk at the bottom and was recently cut off...poorly, as well as the main branch chopped at the top. You can see this from the top view picture. It's about 12" tall and looks large enough to lightly prune, lightly root trim and put in a planting box to gain a little more size for another year or two. First off, would you do anything with that lower trunk to make it look better in the long run? I don't care for the "double trunk" look at the bottom. Can I at least cut the top at more of an angle so it meets the main trunk more clean? Also I am planning on cutting that partial top branch off and wiring the branch just to it's right in an upward/slightly left position to make it the leading branch. I will also wire the other branches and prune as necessary to give the tree a better bonsai form over time. Anything you would change with this current plan?





Thank you

 

[Jaberwky17]

I'm going to attempt a response even though my experience is very limited. First, welcome to the forum and you will be reminded to list your location and hardiness zone for better responses to questions. Second, that isn't a broken branch or second trunk down there - it's a nasty graft scar. If that was the only issue with this tree you could probably lose some scarring over time if you have time to grow this out and fatten the trunk. You could also raise the soil level over time and hide it but then there is nothing for nebari. Third, the major branching appears to originate at a few whorls that sprout at the same spot. this is very undesirable and even if you remove some branches there will still be a large knuckle in that spot, which will cause or add to reverse trunk taper. Fourth, the needles seem really long for white pine of this scale and may be a challenge to reduce effectively. [edit: sorry i just realized its very small tree so needle length is probably fine] Finally, the trunk itself is stick straight - you may be able to get some movement through wiring but right now it's not very attractive.

In short, I think others may agree this is not a great subject for good bonsai. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

 

[Gene Deci]

It is hard to tell from the pictures but that tree looks more like a two or three needle pine to me. In any case, I would echo what Jaberwky said. That does not mean you can't learn from this tree though. Just learning how to keep it healthy in a pot is a place to start. Since you have it, go ahead and do your best.

 

[Vance Wood]

What bonsai nursery did you purchase this tree from? I agree with Lordy, that is a very bad graft scar at the bottom and I doubt you will find yourself happy in the few years.

 

[Nybonsai12]

Wee tree nursery?

 

[Pals_id]

What bonsai nursery did you purchase this tree from? I agree with Lordy, that is a very bad graft scar at the bottom and I doubt you will find yourself happy in the few years.

Thank you for the replies. Yes, I agree and that was my first thought upon receipt of the tree. It may be a good starter, but will never be a good quality bonsai. I was just checking since this is my first young pine I purchased with the intent of creating a bonsai. I also told the nursery that by phone and email. I left the nurseries name out of the original post because I do not want to spread negative reviews about them without giving them a chance to make things right. I will email them including a link to this forum thread and see what they can offer.

Again, there may be an appropriate resolution, I will keep this thread updated. But here is a link to the product I purchased with the understanding it would be a good "pre-bonsai":
http://www.hollowcreekbonsai.com/ec...-five-needle-pine-in-a-6-x5-growing-pot.rhtml

 

[Pals_id]

...this also brings up another question. If a young pine tree has been growing on it's own with large needles and then turned into bonsai. What have you found to be the most effective way of reducing the overall needle size. Can you simply pull all the old needles out while the tree is healthy before growing in the spring, kind of like defoliating a deciduous tree? If old needle removal is to be done, would some of the new growth also be removed or left intact to grow until the following spring? I will not have to consider this for a while, but I am interested in knowing what methods can be used.

Thanks again

 

[Adair M]

Obviously, you're brand new...

That is a Japanese White Pine (aka 5 needle pine) grafted onto (most likely) Japanese Black Pine stock.

JWP is very slow growing, so it's grafted onto JBP stock because 1) the more vigorous roots of JBP makes the JWP part grow faster, and 2) some JWP needles are more attractive than others, so they use the pretty needled variety, and graft. Seeds don't run true.

Here's the thing... even on the JBP roots, JWP are super slow growers. EVEN IF you knew what you were doing, it would take 15 to 20 years before this would grow out to look like anything. Planted in the ground.

In Japan, they take these little graftings, wrap a coil of wire around the JBP portion of the trunk, bend it into some curves, and plant it in the ground, and leave it for a decade. The wireis left in the trunk. The tree grows bark around the wire. The don't wire the JWP portion, because it is so slow growing, the tree doesn't grow fast enough to put bark over the wire. It would just scar, but never bark up. It takes about 40 years for JWP to produce bark. They fertilize heavily, and do some branch selection every year or so. Then, after the decade, they dig them up by the thousands, and go thru them, culling the really ugly ones, and selling the rest (about 50%) to someone who prunes them for basic style, and begins getting them so they can live in pots. Another couple years go by, they are culled again, and the decent ones get put in a bonsai pot and sold.

Now, in Japan, the initial graft is made so that there is a branch right there at the graft. Your little tree wasn't so lucky.

I'm not going to say this can't someday become a nice bonsai. It could. In maybe two decades. IF, you really know what you're doing.

Start with something that grows fast, and is more forgiving of mistakes: Trident Maple. Or, a JBP pine.

 

[Adair M]

And, with JWP, don't be concerned with needle length. They're naturally pretty short. If you pull all the needles off, you've killed it.

 

[Adair M]

By the way, I went to that link where you bought the tree, and read the care instructions, and the description of the soil, etc.

Most of that "information" is just flat out wrong.

 

[Pals_id]

Yup, I am brand new. I have just read one book so far and am in the process of learning from the forum. I know pines are very slow growers, so I am in no way looking for an instant bonsai. I just did not realize these particular trees were grafted. I will give it time and patience and see how it's doing...a decade from now!

 

[october]

Welcome Pals,
Ya, you received one with a pretty bad graft. Adair provided some excellent information for you. Unfortunately with this tree, because of the graft, you are stopped right out of the gate. Also, due to its age, you really can't do much to it. Meaning it won't teach you much about wiring and styling. To get a young white pine graft prebonsai that has even slight potential, you are looking at around $140, minimum price.

Personally, I would go with a small shimpaku juniper. They are easier to learn, more forgiving and grow fast.

Rob

 

[Adair M]

In a decade, that graft scar won't be as noticeable.

The JBP trunk will be 2, maybe 3 inches thick. The JWP portion will only be 3/4 to an inch think. The JBP part will have flakey bark, the JEP will still be a smooth grey.

Here is a picture of what it could look like in 25 years.

 

[october]

Right Side up.

Rob

 

[Pals_id]

Thanks guys, the information is appreciated. I have chosen to take on this hobby and have no problem spending money on quality trees that have potential. I also have some junipers ordered from different sources. Can I ask for some good sources for bonsai and pre-bonsai? Either post them here or pm me.

Thanks again

 

[Nybonsai12]

Here's a few
New England bonsai gardens
Evergreen garden works
Gregory beach bonsai
Check bonsai classifieds on Facebook

Also fill out your profile so we know where you are. You should consider joining a club. Experienced folks can help a lot and also give you sources of local material at decent prices.

 

[Colin Lewis]

Can I ask for some good sources for bonsai and pre-bonsai?

Your own back (or front) yard would yield far better material than this any day of the week. Save your money and spend it on a shovel and some temporary containers.

 

[edprocoat]

I'll probably be corrected, but, with all the brown needle tips and the dull listless look of the needles coupled with the yellow looking ones nearer the bottom I have to say that looks like a less than healthy tree to me.

ed

 

[Adair M]

No, it's healthy enough, those are the previous year needles. They'll drop off, or they can be cut off.

 

[edprocoat]

No, it's healthy enough, those are the previous year needles. They'll drop off, or they can be cut off.

See what I know about pines ... I never had any luck with them either, they are the one tree that I have in my 3 strike I'm out rule.

ed