2 Grey alders. Side by side experiment.

[Eckhoffw]

I purchased these two gray alder saplings about one year ago (Mother’s Day 2023) and immediately planted them in the grow out bed.

Amazed by the rate of growth, I decided I would tackle the two very differently.

Pic of #2 -6 months ago/fall
Then today.

One I will let grow almost unchecked, or unchopped until Desired trunk thickness is met.

The other other, I will intermittently prune for taper along the way.

First off, I want to ask, which one would you treat which way?


#1 double trunk
#2 single trunk

I want to chop one of these hard now before leaf out, but which one, and why?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts!

 

[Eckhoffw]

To follow up;
I understand that To obtain the desired trunk thickness, It will take much longer for the Intermittently chopped tree, to gain that thickness.
I’m thinking I would like around A 4+ inch trunk, as these trees will need to be bigger for scale purposes.

I also plan on Digging this one up -Maybe yearly?- to Work the roots and replanting it in Anderson flat. Perhaps further away from the other one as it may become shaded out.

Just my ramblings.

 

[Eckhoffw]

Because of the overwhelming amount of responses, I call on @Orion_metalhead to ask, which of these should be developed slowly.
I really enjoy Orions meticulously developed saplings, + I know he has grey alder in his collection.
Anyone?

 

[Colorado]

Nice project! I think alder is a great species to work with for bonsai

I’d probably grow out the double trunk more vigorously and do the slower technique on the other one. Then maybe remove one of the double trunks down the road and have a single trunk with nice taper? I don’t know, just some random thoughts

Interested to see how these develop for ya, alder seems to grow really fast!

 

[Eckhoffw]

Nice project! I think alder is a great species to work with for bonsai

I’d probably grow out the double trunk more vigorously and do the slower technique on the other one. Then maybe remove one of the double trunks down the road and have a single trunk with nice taper? I don’t know, just some random thoughts

Interested to see how these develop for ya, alder seems to grow really fast!

Thanks so much for your feedback!
Yeah, I wish I had pictures of these when they were in their nursery containers. Maybe 1/2 of an inch thick when I bought them.

It seems they naturally make some nice bends and curves, but yeah, the fast grow = corse growing.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

So you want these to get to a 4" thick trunk... what is your overall height intention?

Now, to my treatment of each according to the methods above with option 1 being fully grow and chop once and option 2 being a more restricted and meticulous pruning cycle. I think fully grow the single trunk and engage in more pruning annually on the twin. I would do maybe one large removal on the twin now (red) and next year or the year after remove another section (orange) as below:



In truth, though, leaving these in the ground, is not in my methodology at all. I have found alder put on growth very well in almost any container so long as they have room to put on root mass, but the internode length is reduced in a containerized environment (as Neil calls it), which is a key element in their development. In the ground, these will get looooong internodes and you will have fewer options long term for pruning until you slow them down for two or three years. Starting fast growing trees and pioneer species in a restricted growing environment, internodes will tighten and the tree can be more easily ramified while still maintaining an acceptable growth rate.

If these were both mine, I may leave one in ground and have one in a smallish grow box, maybe 3x larger than my long term trunk thickness goal with repots every two years for root mass development and annual pruning after first flush in June here in 7b. Tree 1 is similar to my 5yr old from seed alder, so I would likely grow that out in ground for a different approach to what I already have, and I would develop #2 in a container. The containerized trees would likely end up around no more than a final height of 18". The ground grown would likely end up around 30" to accomodate for the expected longer internodes. The ground grown tree I would make effort to add trunk movement in the first year with a loose coil of wire to allow the expected growth without trunk scarring.

 

[Eckhoffw]

So you want these to get to a 4" thick trunk... what is your overall height intention?

Now, to my treatment of each according to the methods above with option 1 being fully grow and chop once and option 2 being a more restricted and meticulous pruning cycle. I think fully grow the single trunk and engage in more pruning annually on the twin. I would do maybe one large removal on the twin now (red) and next year or the year after remove another section (orange) as below:

View attachment 534367

In truth, though, leaving these in the ground, is not in my methodology at all. I have found alder put on growth very well in almost any container so long as they have room to put on root mass, but the internode length is reduced in a containerized environment (as Neil calls it), which is a key element in their development. In the ground, these will get looooong internodes and you will have fewer options long term for pruning until you slow them down for two or three years. Starting fast growing trees and pioneer species in a restricted growing environment, internodes will tighten and the tree can be more easily ramified while still maintaining an acceptable growth rate.

If these were both mine, I may leave one in ground and have one in a smallish grow box, maybe 3x larger than my long term trunk thickness goal with repots every two years for root mass development and annual pruning after first flush in June here in 7b. Tree 1 is similar to my 5yr old from seed alder, so I would likely grow that out in ground for a different approach to what I already have, and I would develop #2 in a container. The containerized trees would likely end up around no more than a final height of 18". The ground grown would likely end up around 30" to accomodate for the expected longer internodes. The ground grown tree I would make effort to add trunk movement in the first year with a loose coil of wire to allow the expected growth without trunk scarring.

Thank you so much for your thorough feedback!
You’ve given me a lot of food for thought, and have swayed me to begin structuring tree #1- twin trunk.

Upon further inspection, the tree also had another small trunk at rear.
I cut it back, then cut it back more to a stub.


I also found a girdling root to deal with. As you can see it made a good wound on the large root.

Finally, I pruned back, and sealed. I did both chops now as I feel it can take it no problem.
You can see the red buds available to push off the primary trunk.
Thanks again for your help.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I like the start of this one.

Heres mine... from seed in a pot its whole life. Not quite swelling yet but probably will within next two weeks. It has leafed out the past two years at the same time - second week of April.

 

[Eckhoffw]

Well, here’s how they look today.

I knew the major chop would Slow this alder down, but it’s really moving slow.
The other is moving along with big ol leaves.

 

[Eckhoffw]

Update. The chopped one has finally flushed out.
The other one -at right- has been allowed to grow large. I have given it some pruning when it gets crazy long shoots, so not entirely untouched.

 

[pandacular]

Has the smaller one been cut back more since the original cut? Or just once? I cut back one of my alders today and when I checked my notes, I realized it was the third time!

 

[Eckhoffw]

Has the smaller one been cut back more since the original cut? Or just once? I cut back one of my alders today and when I checked my notes, I realized it was the third time!

Good eye!
It has been untouched except for that straight segment coming up. It shot up from the back, and looking at it now, I should have cut it back further.

 

[pandacular]

I don’t know if it needs to be cut back further, I was just curious for the comparison! Are you planning to wire it out in the fall/spring?

 

[Eckhoffw]

I don’t know if it needs to be cut back further, I was just curious for the comparison! Are you planning to wire it out in the fall/spring?

Ok yeah. It wasn’t cut back further, but was very slow to get going after the chop.
Still impressive trunk growth. It’s at 1.75” due to the double trunk structure.
I think I’ll do some wiring next year when I’ve established some keepers I want to build upon.

 

[pandacular]

I hear ground growers often say it takes off in year 2 after putting it in the ground. I’m excited to see how these do!

If you do wire, I’d imagine it would be coming off really quick, in like 4-6 weeks!

 

[Eckhoffw]

Little update on the side by side alders.

These things grow like crazy. The ‘mostly unchecked’ alder trunk is at around 2.25” the one that got chopped is around 1.6”

 

[coltranem]

How are the chops healing?

 

[Eckhoffw]

Hmm. It’s kind of hard to tell. I have the cut putty on there so I can’t really see but it doesn’t look like it’s rolling over yet.

 

[Eckhoffw]

Today’s check on the alders.

The trunks are fattening up quick on both trees. Obviously the one left to run is girthing up quicker, but the chopped one is still fattening up as well. Again, These alders are swift growers. Wiffle golf ball for scale.

The chopped and pruned one.



And the one left to shoot.

Side by side.



I may dig these up next spring to address roots. Possible to be put in grow boxes.

 

[Eckhoffw]

Again, impressed by the quick thickening in the alders. Especially the unchopped one.

It’s gained about an inch per year and is at 3” at the base flare.



The other is just about 2”.

In comparison, I found it amazing that this Hackberry has been left to grow for 3-4 years and trunk size is 1.5”.
I think it shot to about 10’ high this season.
Cool bark forming tho.


Anyways, my current plan is to leave the smaller alder in the ground while removing the big one next spring.
I figure I better work the roots, and put it in a shallow pot. I’ll cut back hard and see what it gives me.