shohin_branches' limber pine bunjin

June 24th 2022
Todd Schlafer Workshop MABA 202two
Limber pine had been collected three years earlier and put into solid pumice.
How it started


Partway through the workshop.
I normally work with smaller material so wiring this was interesting.


At the end. Wasn't fully happy with it but decided to sit with it awhile to think about it patiently.

April 14th 2023
Repotting day
Started 9:15pm

Prepped two pots but wasn't sure what the roots would look like. You can see I gave the tree more of an apex and changed the placement of a few branches.


The roots still need a lot of work. I was able to remove 1/2 of the hard native soil and a lot of large rocks.
Finished at 11:50pm
Not 100% happy with the planting angle I ended up with but I needed to go to bed. It was an incremental improvement.
The left branch still drives me crazy.

August 27th 2023
I let it grow out to recover from repotting and keep up the health. I had adjusted the branches further. This is my first limber pine so I wanted to confirm it was healthy enough to remove the left branch.


Worked with Bjorn Bjornholm on the refinement. He said the tree looked healthy enough to remove the large left branch. We did some needle clean-up and branch adjustments too. I am now much happier with where this tree is. 2-3 more years in this pot and hopefully it will fit in the Sara Rayner pot next when I remove the last of the native soil.

October 30th, 2024
All wire removed


I have some concerns about these two shari that appeared out of nowhere last year. They don't seem to be getting any bigger though. I'm going to be a bit more thorough with my dormancy spray going forward since there is so much old flaky bark for little jerks to hide in.


The size of this pot is a bit large and the native soil still in some of the rootball is breaking down making consistent watering tricky. I might have to stick a skewer in it to monitor over winter. Foliage could be healthier and I need to be more mindful to avoid overwatering.

Before cleanup

Not fully satisfied with how far I got. It needs at least four more pieces of wire added and a few more tweaks but I have a presentation for work I'm behind on. I might take it and have Suthin look at it this weekend.




The sunset was awesome while I was working in the backyard

Did a short workshop with Suthin today


I like the way we compacted the form of the tree. Once it is repotted next spring it will be so cool.

I'm having trouble trying to understand why you have not put some movement in that trunk to give the tree a better look (my opinion). I'm just not a fan of the trunk at that angle and I don't care for the trunk being so straight. Also, the apex branching looks to be longer, bigger that the branching below them. Maybe just the photos. Just my opinion and not meant to offend.

August44 said:

I'm having trouble trying to understand why you have not put some movement in that trunk to give the tree a better look (my opinion). I'm just not a fan of the trunk at that angle and I don't care for the trunk being so straight. Also, the apex branching looks to be longer, bigger that the branching below them. Maybe just the photos. Just my opinion and not meant to offend.

Click to expand...

Tip from a corporate manager: if you don't mean to offend someone when giving feedback make it more constructive and respectful of something that they have put a lot of thought and work into. Here's an example of something more constructive that doesn't say that you don't like my tree.

"I was wondering about the choice to keep the trunk relatively straight, was that a deliberate design direction? I ask because adding some movement could potentially give the tree a more dynamic and natural feel. The trunk angle feels a bit rigid to me, and I think a subtle change might enhance its character. I also noticed the apex branching seems larger or longer than the branches below, though that could just be how it looks in the photo. Interested to hear what your vision is for the tree."

It replaces the phrases "I'm just not a fan" and "I don't care for" which make me as the artist feel defensive because that feedback is only there to tell me you don't like it not spark discussion on what other options I had considered or what the constraints of the tree are. Writing "this is just my opinion" makes me think people often get defensive and hostile with you when you give feedback and the key is to be kind and give constructive feedback. I hope the example helps you think of ways to improve feedback so you get more positive and collaborate responses.

Back to the tree. It's fairly old, and if you look at some of the closeup trunk photos it has beautiful flakey bark. Limber pine also have a tendency to snap clean if you bend old branches too far. I haven't experienced it myself but that was what Bjorn warned me about when I discussed the tree care with him. With those two factors in mind and some of the twisting shari that is available to extend I haven't had any desire to bend the trunk. It has never been suggested to me by anyone that has seen the tree in person. Most of the trunk is 1¾ to 1½ inches in diameter.

Traditional literati style bonsai have subtle trunk movement. When I look at my tree I see the trunk as beautiful and dynamic with a lot of subtle movement and age. This tree has also only been in training as a bonsai for three years so the refinement of the branches is just getting started. I hope to keep improving it year after year.

shohin_branches said:

I have some concerns about these two shari that appeared out of nowhere last year. They don't seem to be getting any bigger though. I'm going to be a bit more thorough with my dormancy spray going forward since there is so much old flaky bark for little jerks to hide in.
View attachment 572844 View attachment 572845

Click to expand...

I've found heat and sun to be reliable creators of surprise shari like yours. I've had similar surprises with douglas fir and lodgepole pine collected from high elevation and, like yours, both of those trees died back on exposed sections of truck. Of course, I'm in a very different climate with much more intense sun, but maybe worth considering. https://crataegus.com/2024/09/03/does-extreme-heat-create-deadwood/

"I have some concerns about these two shari that appeared out of nowhere last year. They don't seem to be getting any bigger though. I'm going to be a bit more thorough with my dormancy spray going forward since there is so much old flaky bark for little jerks to hide in."

Look closely and see the dead wood in these spots is aged and gray. Has been dead for some time and that new healing growth is what split dead bark off exposing this healing and gives great added character to the tree..

shohin_branches said:

Tip from a corporate manager: if you don't mean to offend someone when giving feedback make it more constructive and respectful of something that they have put a lot of thought and work into. Here's an example of something more constructive that doesn't say that you don't like my tree.

"I was wondering about the choice to keep the trunk relatively straight, was that a deliberate design direction? I ask because adding some movement could potentially give the tree a more dynamic and natural feel. The trunk angle feels a bit rigid to me, and I think a subtle change might enhance its character. I also noticed the apex branching seems larger or longer than the branches below, though that could just be how it looks in the photo. Interested to hear what your vision is for the tree."

It replaces the phrases "I'm just not a fan" and "I don't care for" which make me as the artist feel defensive because that feedback is only there to tell me you don't like it not spark discussion on what other options I had considered or what the constraints of the tree are. Writing "this is just my opinion" makes me think people often get defensive and hostile with you when you give feedback and the key is to be kind and give constructive feedback. I hope the example helps you think of ways to improve feedback so you get more positive and collaborate responses.

Back to the tree. It's fairly old, and if you look at some of the closeup trunk photos it has beautiful flakey bark. Limber pine also have a tendency to snap clean if you bend old branches too far. I haven't experienced it myself but that was what Bjorn warned me about when I discussed the tree care with him. With those two factors in mind and some of the twisting shari that is available to extend I haven't had any desire to bend the trunk. It has never been suggested to me by anyone that has seen the tree in person. Most of the trunk is 1¾ to 1½ inches in diameter.

Traditional literati style bonsai have subtle trunk movement. When I look at my tree I see the trunk as beautiful and dynamic with a lot of subtle movement and age. This tree has also only been in training as a bonsai for three years so the refinement of the branches is just getting started. I hope to keep improving it year after year.

Click to expand...

I am sure that there is no way I could have said what I said without riling you. You can't handle anything about your tree that's not positive. In all your suggestive scolding above, you have said nothing that would change my mind about the tree or how I said it. Carry on.

Potawatomi13 said:

"I have some concerns about these two shari that appeared out of nowhere last year. They don't seem to be getting any bigger though. I'm going to be a bit more thorough with my dormancy spray going forward since there is so much old flaky bark for little jerks to hide in."

Look closely and see the dead wood in these spots is aged and gray. Has been dead for some time and that new healing growth is what split dead bark off exposing this healing and gives great added character to the tree..

Click to expand...

The lower shari with the knot was already exposed but it expanded upwards as more tissue died. The upper one was 100% new at the time and wasn't gray.

shohin_branches said:

Tip from a corporate manager: if you don't mean to offend someone when giving feedback make it more constructive and respectful of something that they have put a lot of thought and work into. Here's an example of something more constructive that doesn't say that you don't like my tree.

"I was wondering about the choice to keep the trunk relatively straight, was that a deliberate design direction? I ask because adding some movement could potentially give the tree a more dynamic and natural feel. The trunk angle feels a bit rigid to me, and I think a subtle change might enhance its character. I also noticed the apex branching seems larger or longer than the branches below, though that could just be how it looks in the photo. Interested to hear what your vision is for the tree."

It replaces the phrases "I'm just not a fan" and "I don't care for" which make me as the artist feel defensive because that feedback is only there to tell me you don't like it not spark discussion on what other options I had considered or what the constraints of the tree are. Writing "this is just my opinion" makes me think people often get defensive and hostile with you when you give feedback and the key is to be kind and give constructive feedback. I hope the example helps you think of ways to improve feedback so you get more positive and collaborate responses.

Back to the tree. It's fairly old, and if you look at some of the closeup trunk photos it has beautiful flakey bark. Limber pine also have a tendency to snap clean if you bend old branches too far. I haven't experienced it myself but that was what Bjorn warned me about when I discussed the tree care with him. With those two factors in mind and some of the twisting shari that is available to extend I haven't had any desire to bend the trunk. It has never been suggested to me by anyone that has seen the tree in person. Most of the trunk is 1¾ to 1½ inches in diameter.

Traditional literati style bonsai have subtle trunk movement. When I look at my tree I see the trunk as beautiful and dynamic with a lot of subtle movement and age. This tree has also only been in training as a bonsai for three years so the refinement of the branches is just getting started. I hope to keep improving it year after year.

Click to expand...

I find this "corporate talk" for feedback insulting, condescending and utterly infuriating. I am not a kid. If you have something to say about me, my work or my performance, just say it and we will discuss it on the merits. Othewise, I will clap back at you. I dont need kudos nor to be told I am doing a "good job." Damn, I hate that one!

bonsaichile said:

I find this "corporate talk" for feedback insulting, condescending and utterly infuriating. I am not a kid. If you have something to say about me, my work or my performance, just say it and we will discuss it on the merits. Othewise, I will clap back at you. I dont need kudos nor to be told I am doing a "good job." Damn, I hate that one!

Click to expand...

We're tree nerds talking about our miniature tree hobby. It's time for everyone to lighten up about my stupid corporate talk joke. My main point is there is no need to be a dick and just say you don't like something without saying or showing what you would do differently. That's not feedback that's just tearing other people down to make yourself feel superior. If you want to give real actionable feedback on my tree in my tree progress thread than please do so, but now we're getting off topic.

It's not that hard to be nice to others, damn

shohin_branches said:

We're tree nerds talking about our miniature tree hobby. It's time for everyone to lighten up about my stupid corporate talk joke. My main point is there is no need to be a dick and just say you don't like something without saying or showing what you would do differently. That's not feedback that's just tearing other people down to make yourself feel superior. If you want to give real actionable feedback on my tree in my tree progress thread than please do so, but now we're getting off topic.

It's not that hard to be nice to others, damn

Click to expand...

Everyone to lighten up...Hmmm. Who are you calling a dick by the way? I won't even talk about "tearing other people down to make yourself feel superior." Any comments made were just personal opinions. If you can't handle that Mr. Corporate Manager, better bow out. I tried to tell you in a nice way suggesting/asking certain things, trying to show what I might would do differently, but then you became Mr Big News and started in with the lecture. You might want to understand something, I am probably twice your age and am beyond learning and/or taking correction from someone like you. I am glad you opened the door on comments though. That was big of you for sure. In the first place, and you are right, you had a nice tree to start with that had nice bark. Notice the worn "had". Then you whacked off a majority of the branches, for what reason, I don't know. You can say you wanted a literati, but it would have made a very nice informal upright IMO and you probably won't have that chance again with that species. I actually can't believe all of those famous bonsai teachers didn't say something as you were whacking off branches. Let's talk about the planting angle if you don't mind. My suggestion would be to reset the planting angle to at least 1/2 the angle you have it now and then get a piece of rebar just a little longer than the tree is high, two good long and heavy zip ties, and an old tennis ball, and bend the trunk. They don't call them Limber pines for nothing. It will bend. Just do a little bit at a time and don't push it. I have some smaller Limber pines that are about 3/8" diameter and they will easily bend double. Remember, all of this is just my opinion, just like I said last time. If you don't like what I said, just ignore it and move on. It's your tree, do what you want to do to it. Happy New year.

I agree with reducing the angle. A literati tree is a tall, slender tree without much lower branching to look like its fighting all other trees around it searching for light. A literati growing closer to horizontal than vertical kills that illusion and is really jarring to look at.

Time Wizard said:

I agree with reducing the angle. A literati tree is a tall, slender tree without much lower branching to look like its fighting all other trees around it searching for light. A literati growing closer to horizontal than vertical kills that illusion and is really jarring to look at.

Click to expand...

The actual angle is 45°, which a very good angle to focus more on the movement than on the linearity/stiffness of the trunk.
I tried to raise the tree 2 times (7 degree) to see if the result is good. For me, the more the tree is raised up, the more straight and steep the trunk looks and we lose dynamism

The original 45° angle is on the left side ->

clem said:

The actual angle is 45°, which a very good angle to focus more on the movement than on the linearity/stiffness of the trunk.

Click to expand...

I agree. There is talk in this thread about this tree being a literati, when in fact it is a perfect example of a slant style design. The energy comes from the strong diagonal line of the trunk, like a tree that was knocked over in nature. Bjorn's styling laid out the branches to perfectly compliment the angle of the slant. I find it quite attractive.

Literati is all about avant garde trunk movement, with swirls, bends, and abrupt changes in direction - like the work of a calligraphy brush. However, a rose by any other name smells just as sweet. The name of the style is less important than understanding why the design works - and how the entire tree radiates energy by being off-balance. It will look even better as it is moved into a shallower pot. This is one tree that I'm sure looks better in person when you can see it in 3D.

I think it is an interesting tree! It looks really cool especially after the recent workshop with Suthin.

I’d probably just embrace the shari and extend it more over time. No rush though. I’ve got a couple collected pines that have revealed Shari after a few years that wasn’t visible before. I think sometimes it just takes awhile for the bark to fall off and reveal the deadwood, which may have actually been there for quite some time.

What kind of pot are you thinking for the next repot?