Source for JWP on its own roots?

[yashu]

I’d like to find a source for pinus parviflora on its own roots, either from seed or cutting. I see plenty of JWP on JBP rootstock but I’m on the edge of zone 4 so I’m interested in the additional winter hardiness afforded by the white pine roots. Ideally I’d like 4-6 y.o. pre-bonsai material, something ready for development and grown for bonsai but not yet styled. I haven’t been able to locate any material like this so I figured it would be worth consulting the hive mind. Thanks in advance for any leads or ideas!

Attached is a JWP I killed with an unsuccessful ground layer attempt, I’m all done with that approach

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

For me, 1-2 yoa pinus parviflora glauca seedlings are easier to get. I have bought these and just planted them in the ground after the second year. Kaedebonsai-en stocks these, although the price is almost double (28.00 + shipping) the first time I ordered them, likely due to high demand. Also Adams Bonsai. Other places used are Conifer Kingdom and Kigi Nurseries although most of their stock is grafted.

Getting 4-6 yoa on its own roots may require one to call to a more bulk oriented nursery and ask directly if they have ungrafted stock. Whenever I’m looking for something like this I call around to the Oregon Nurseries.

Check out this link

Good Luck!

cheers
DSD sends

 

[yashu]

Thank you for the resources @Deep Sea Diver ! I’m a little hesitant about going the online nursery stock route as I’ve been burned before with somewhat expensive but unusable trees (excepting the garden). If you can’t get your fingers in the soil before purchase you’re at the mercy of whoever is picking your tree. I may get some seedlings but I have more than enough material in (very) early development so I’m hoping to find something a little older especially since we’re dealing with an already slow growing, single flush pine.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

That can be an issue for sure.

I was brainstorming a bit and thinking maybe Japanese Red Pine might be more available, unless you are attached to the blue green needles of the P parvifloria Glaucus.

Japanese Red Pines are double flush like Japanese Black pines, so these develop much faster then a JWP. These have softer foliage in between closer to a JWP then a JBP. Also hardy like zone 3-7ish? Here’s one I have between stylings.



Cheers
DSD sends

 

[yashu]

That can be an issue for sure.

I was brainstorming a bit and thinking maybe Japanese Red Pine might be more available, unless you are attached to the blue green needles of the P parvifloria Glaucus.

Japanese Red Pines are double flush like Japanese Black pines, so these develop much faster then a JWP. These have softer foliage in between closer to a JWP then a JBP. Also hardy like zone 3-7ish? Here’s one I have between stylings.

View attachment 452688

Cheers
DSD sends

Very nice tree! How long have you had that?

I do like the red pines and there will definitely be one in my future but I don’t think it will remedy my current infatuation with JWPs.

 

[yashu]

I just read your post on another thread and sent Julian Adams an email with the hopes that he may have some of his cuttings or air layers left. His prices for pre bonsai material seem quite fair so my fingers are crossed that he still has some.

 

[Nybonsai12]

JWP is a tough tree to find in the US. Ungrafted seedlings are expensive, tough to find and unpredictable when growing out, not to mention will take an eternity. Older material even grafted is pricey. Older ungrafted will be thousands. That middle ground JWP that is ungrafted, decent branching, ready to be styled pre bonsai for a few hundred doesn’t exist in the US Or is at the least a rare unicorn.

 

[yashu]

JWP is a tough tree to find in the US. Ungrafted seedlings are expensive, tough to find and unpredictable when growing out, not to mention will take an eternity. Older material even grafted is pricey. Older ungrafted will be thousands. That middle ground JWP that is ungrafted, decent branching, ready to be styled pre bonsai for a few hundred doesn’t exist in the US Or is at the least a rare unicorn.

Well, I’m patient… mostly.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Our Japanese Red Pine was one of the trees donated to the Museum three years ago. We purchased it in a rare inventory sale. It hadn’t been worked or repotted for over 6 years and was extremely pot bound. I had to use a small flat pry bar and water jet to get it loose.

Since then we’ve worked really hard to get it robust and ready to work. Late last spring Dan Robinson and I initially styled it.

btw Julian Adams had trouble with this years crop of Zuisho White Pines, so only a couple were sold. He runs a lottery to sell off the air layers each year, so be sure to get your name in on the date he lists for the lottery.

Julian also sells small JWP cuttings. They are in high demand. I bought a couple over the years the biggest one is now growing out in the ground with JBP and JRP.

I figure the JWP has 2-3 more years and it might be ready!

Good hunting!

cheers
DSD sends

PS You likely know Riverbend has a couple grafted 10 - 18 yoa JWP?

 

[yashu]

PS You likely know Riverbend has a couple grafted 10 - 18 yoa JWP?

I did see Wayne’s trees but I’m pretty set on the non-grafted plant. The grafts on those trees were pretty pronounced as well.

I guess I’ll wait and see what Mr. Adams has and maybe take another day trip through my local nurseries. I know they generally sell JWP but I’m not sure if they’re grafted or not.

 

[orangeyeoman]

That can be an issue for sure.

I was brainstorming a bit and thinking maybe Japanese Red Pine might be more available, unless you are attached to the blue green needles of the P parvifloria Glaucus.

Japanese Red Pines are double flush like Japanese Black pines, so these develop much faster then a JWP. These have softer foliage in between closer to a JWP then a JBP. Also hardy like zone 3-7ish? Here’s one I have between stylings.

View attachment 452688

Cheers
DSD sends

What's the groundcover planting on this? Looks nice.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

It’s a form of very shallow rooted succulent planted with Yamagoke moss. The succulent was in the architects original pots. It spreads easily by brushing off the tiny succulent pods and putting these on the surface of the media & watering . My trees love having the combination on the media.

Regretfully, I’ve looked high and low and haven’t been able to find it.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Frozentreehugger]

You guys still have it way better than us in Canada . Near impossible to find trees grafted or not . The paperwork to import a tree is mind boggling and expensive . Basically only do able at the nursery level I have resigned to the fact will have to grow my own from seed even that is very hard to source . I have even approached a local conifer specialist nursery here about piggy backing there order from the western USA owner was sympathetic but told me last year he was worried about getting 1/2 his order ( Covid) so count your blessing guys

 

[MichaelS]

I’d like to find a source for pinus parviflora on its own roots, either from seed or cutting. I see plenty of JWP on JBP rootstock but I’m on the edge of zone 4 so I’m interested in the additional winter hardiness afforded by the white pine roots. Ideally I’d like 4-6 y.o. pre-bonsai material, something ready for development and grown for bonsai but not yet styled. I haven’t been able to locate any material like this so I figured it would be worth consulting the hive mind. Thanks in advance for any leads or ideas!

While you are waiting to find 4- 6 year old trees, you should buy seeds and get them going. They are extremely hard to get here in Australia (prohibited import now) unless you grow your own stock trees but I have seen them offered regularly in the US. Be prepared for a long wait though. I planted a lot in 2000 and my remaining couple of trees just went into display pots in the last year or two! White pine on it's own roots is a completely different beast to the grafted one. It needs some experience and is easily lost - but well worth it.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

While you are waiting to find 4- 6 year old trees, you should buy seeds and get them going. They are extremely hard to get here in Australia (prohibited import now) unless you grow your own stock trees but I have seen them offered regularly in the US. Be prepared for a long wait though. I planted a lot in 2000 and my remaining couple of trees just went into display pots in the last year or two! White pine on it's own roots is a completely different beast to the grafted one. It needs some experience and is easily lost - but well worth it.

Do you have any germination or seedling care advice specific to JWP if seedlings are easily lost what u it s the biggest risk

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@yashu - you should seriously learn to appreciate a well grafted tree. Possibly learn grafting yourself. A well done graft will become nearly invisible. I've seen some very good ones a decade ago at Brussel's in Olive Branch.

Part of the issue is most JWP from seed are a mediocre yellow green with a scraggly growth habit. Only a few out of a thousand seedlings are that rich blue color. That is the reason why you never see seedlings for sale, most people wouldn't be happy with them when they arrived. Your best bet is to buy a select cultivar with good color and growth habits for bonsai. My favorite is 'Azuma'. Then graft 'Azuma' scions on line understock hardy in your area. Zone 4 suggest strobus or banksiana or contorta car latifolia. You want a cold tolerant understock. Strobus is probably the best because it tolerates cold and water logged situations.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Strobus is probably the best because it tolerates cold and water logged situations.

I've had a strobus and I don't remember even watering it for 4 years. The beast lived until I was done with the smell of cheese, like wet gouda mixed with pine resin.. Pretty invasive tree around here! Allied soldiers must have carried a couple cones, because these pines are found all over the old Market Garden trail.
Same with Quercus rubra that is locally known as American oak; those are taking over forests by the thousands.

 

[Deleted member 32750]

Part of the issue is most JWP from seed are a mediocre yellow green with a scraggly growth habit. Only a few out of a thousand seedlings are that rich blue color. That is the reason why you never see seedlings for sale, most people wouldn't be happy with them when they arrived.

Most of the top japanese white pine bonsai are not grafted and are far from mediocre..



the reason you don’t find many seedlings is because they are rather difficult to germinate compared to other pinus species. Ive bought a dozen japanese white pine seedlings from one of the pre-bonsai vendors mentioned in this thread and i would not describe them as scraggly or mediocre at all

 

[MichaelS]

Do you have any germination or seedling care advice specific to JWP if seedlings are easily lost what u it s the biggest risk

It's not that seedling are easily lost they are quite hardy in the seed pots. You tend to lose them when they are older and you make mistakes in potting up, mix, watering, too much phosphorous etc. One of the biggest mistakes I made was to over-pot. One inch or so of root room in the new pot is plenty. If you can, raise them in clay pots until you want to display.
They are very easy to germinate as long as you have viable seeds. (do the sink or float test) I use sand/gravel and bark as a sowing medium with mycorrhizae from a healthy tree mixed in and planted into a shallow clay pot with a good aeration layer of coarser particles (7-10mm) followed by slightly finer particles (5 to 7mm) and then your sowing mix which should be from 1 to 4mm size. They do very much better in clay as it absorbs extra water from the medium and keeps the seedling happy. You need to cold stratify them for 3 months at 4C In vermiculite or similar after soaking. Then planted in spring. The stratification medium must be barely damp and no more. That's important. Germinate in the sun and cover the pot with some mesh to protect against birds and mice. Leave in full sun and wait 2 years before lifting and potting up singly. For you, now would be a good time to buy them and store them dry in the fridge in an air tight glass jar until stratification time arrives. They will survive for years that way so you can sow them over several years if you end up with too many. They are always in demand and you won't have any trouble moving them. Also, don't worry about long needles or bad colour or other features because it's easy to graft desirable cultivars on to them. (when they are about 3-4 years old). They are very slow compared to black pine stocks but the growth is finer and more like the original selection.

 

[MichaelS]

Most of the top japanese white pine bonsai are not grafted and are far from mediocre..

Yes, and if they are grafted it's usually now onto Japanese white pine stocks. Grafting onto black pine is more for ''commercial grade'' trees.