Bonsai_Bentley
Mame
I have this dawn redwood and I have these two branches originating from the same location. I'm wondering if leaving the lower of the two will result in inverse taper or some other sort of flaw. Thoughts?
Should I cut this branch?
- Thread starter Bonsai_Bentley
- Start date
Pitoon
Imperial Masterpiece
I'm trying to understand why the first chop was done so high....can you elaborate?
Bonsai_Bentley
Mame
I have no idea. I just recently bought this. I agree though and I'm hoping that I can get more budding along the trunk this spring. It's not the best piece of material, but I didn't really have any choice since I can't get this species where I live. I got it at a recent bonsai show held 4 hours away from me lol.
Pitoon
Imperial Masterpiece
If it was me I would chop it at the midpoint of the trunk and plant it in the ground, select a new leader and let it grow out for several years.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Allowing that 3rd bud there is going to ruin it. I'd rub that off.
Mad growing to do, too much to chop anything.
That could turn into a decent transition with time.
Sorce
Mad growing to do, too much to chop anything.
That could turn into a decent transition with time.
Sorce
Bonsai_Bentley
Mame
Oh, that bud is gone. I took it off after I took the pic. I'm ready for the long haul with this one. Just didn't want to start off on the wrong foot. Plan is to let it grow and grow and grow until it's ready.
Bonsai_Bentley
Mame
Oh man, drastic. Probably correct. I'm just scared lol.
Pitoon
Imperial Masterpiece
What is your end point? What are you trying to do with this tree? Have you asked yourself these questions?
To me it looks like its in a 4" pot. Staying in a pot like that the trunk will never gain any girth.....which is why I say put it in the ground. What you have at the moment is a stick in a pot.
The reason why I say chop at the midpoint is because once you select the new leader and the tree grows the transition would be seamless and show some good taper. If you chop cut it 90degrees when the new leader becomes established carve the remaining scar to 45degees and let the tree heal over. After several years the wound should be healed over and the new leader should have enough girth to make good taper.
To me it looks like its in a 4" pot. Staying in a pot like that the trunk will never gain any girth.....which is why I say put it in the ground. What you have at the moment is a stick in a pot.
The reason why I say chop at the midpoint is because once you select the new leader and the tree grows the transition would be seamless and show some good taper. If you chop cut it 90degrees when the new leader becomes established carve the remaining scar to 45degees and let the tree heal over. After several years the wound should be healed over and the new leader should have enough girth to make good taper.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
I agree with most of the above, make a plan. You need to know how tall the finished tree will be so you can establish in your own mind what the taper should be. Draw a picture in scale and measure how wide the trunk will be at points along that vertical column. Draw chop lines where you suppose they would have to be to avoid being too close or distant, keeping in mind that each chop represents one year. They don't stop growing at the upper chop line and continue growing at the lower chop line of a given section, they add girth equally along the length of a section, so the only chop line that touches both sides of the lines forming the trunk is the tippy-top. All other lower chop lines are concurrently narrower than the finished size. Each side branch adds girth only from its height and all below it, none above it.
For the future, plan on retaining a lot of small sacrifice branches the entire length of the trunk to add growth/girth on lower sections that need it. DR buds out everywhere, forever, so to keep sacrifice scars as reasonably small as possible, let lots or all the buds grow and trim off branches as they get to a size you consider the limit of acceptable scars. DR buds in clusters which make a big scar, too, so those need to rubbed off down to a single twig/branch early. This is especially true around the origin of branches which become cluttered and unattractive, soon, and is hard to clean up later. When you get closer to the finished height, start leaving one well-located branch every few inches to have permanent branches one or two years apart at each layer as they ascend up the ideal spiral staircase.
For the future, plan on retaining a lot of small sacrifice branches the entire length of the trunk to add growth/girth on lower sections that need it. DR buds out everywhere, forever, so to keep sacrifice scars as reasonably small as possible, let lots or all the buds grow and trim off branches as they get to a size you consider the limit of acceptable scars. DR buds in clusters which make a big scar, too, so those need to rubbed off down to a single twig/branch early. This is especially true around the origin of branches which become cluttered and unattractive, soon, and is hard to clean up later. When you get closer to the finished height, start leaving one well-located branch every few inches to have permanent branches one or two years apart at each layer as they ascend up the ideal spiral staircase.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
That's what she said.
Bonsai_Bentley
Mame
My plan is to put it into a much bigger pot in the spring. I'm wondering if I can go ahead and do it now though. Not a slip pot necessarily, but I wouldn't touch the roots. I've just been debating going to 1:1:1 or what I use for my grow bags when I put a tree in the ground.
For overall style I imagined a mostly upright tree with good taper. I'd be good with some movement as I'm not looking for ramrod straight. Just a mostly upright natural looking tree.
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Bonsai_Bentley
Mame
Sorry, this is kinda hard to follow, but I'll read it a few times to try to digest it. One article I read said to let the tree grow until it's about 1/3 of your desired girth and then chop it to 1/3 of the height. I'm targeting a 3' tree, so that would be at 1'. Then let it grow more and when the base gets to 2/3 of desired girth chop at 2/3 of the height. That would be about 2'. Then let it grow out to the the remaining desired girth and then do the final cut.
That's probably a bit too simplistic of a plan, but it's all I have.
Bonsai_Bentley
Mame
Actually, now that I think of it if my plan is to chop it at around a foot at some point that branch I asked about doesn't really matter. I'd probably be cutting below it.
Captain.Bonsai
Mame
^^^
This was my first thought when I read this thread. Your question about the current leader isn’t relevant if you plan on chopping lower than that leader.
Also, it looks limited on foliage so more green is better for the plant’s health at this point.
Let it grow.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Whatever else is true, a 3" dia chop will take a very long time to have any shape other than a potato with leaves. Anyone who wishes to contradict me should do so with pictures of a successful specimen and state in so many words the length of time necessary to accomplish same. Then OP can decide from there his path. I cannot remember ever seeing a Larch with 3" dia trunk base. For that to be in scale in its typical style, the tree would have to be 4 feet tall.Sorry, this is kinda hard to follow, but I'll read it a few times to try to digest it. One article I read said to let the tree grow until it's about 1/3 of your desired girth and then chop it to 1/3 of the height. I'm targeting a 3' tree, so that would be at 1'. Then let it grow more and when the base gets to 2/3 of desired girth chop at 2/3 of the height. That would be about 2'. Then let it grow out to the the remaining desired girth and then do the final cut.
That's probably a bit too simplistic of a plan, but it's all I have.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Sorry post #9 is not more simply put, but it's a recitation of principles as opposed to actual instructions for a specific tree, which doesn't exist yet.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
I think your plan is ok but..
- Replant in spring. And DO rootwork. Probably you have twisted roots in there now. Let the tree grow for a few years and that will create ugly twisted roots in your nebari. Sort it out now (in spring)
- Make your first chop MUCH lower than 1ft. I would really look into taper in trunks and what is needed.
- Multiple chops as suggested by forsoothe is ok, but I would let the trunk grow a few years to get a good base, then start chopping. In bonsai you want overly dramatic taper in the trunk to create a sense of awe. The example given of a larch with 3 inch base and 4 feet tall has not much to do with bonsai, in my mind. Have a look: https://www.growingbonsai.net/about-taper-in-bonsai/.
Look at this tree from bonsaiempire's excellent website. The trunk is maybe not 3 inches. But taper is much stronger than anything you would find in the valleys. On top of the mountain however..
My larch "potatoe with leaves", which has a 3 inch base, but is still in development and needs a lot of rootwork still (Needs to sit lower still; just did not have a suitable pot this spring for proper planting. Still annoyed!):
As you see, taper is much more dramatic than indicated before. I think to make convincing images one needs to start with a solid trunk. Build from there. Chopping is going to set the process of thickening back a lot. So only chop when the basic thickness of the tree is nearing what you want at that point. (The new leader will in the first years have very little effect on thickening of the lower parts). Then make a series of chops. 2-3 is on the low side. The more chops, the smoother the trunk taper will become.
- Replant in spring. And DO rootwork. Probably you have twisted roots in there now. Let the tree grow for a few years and that will create ugly twisted roots in your nebari. Sort it out now (in spring)
- Make your first chop MUCH lower than 1ft. I would really look into taper in trunks and what is needed.
- Multiple chops as suggested by forsoothe is ok, but I would let the trunk grow a few years to get a good base, then start chopping. In bonsai you want overly dramatic taper in the trunk to create a sense of awe. The example given of a larch with 3 inch base and 4 feet tall has not much to do with bonsai, in my mind. Have a look: https://www.growingbonsai.net/about-taper-in-bonsai/.
Look at this tree from bonsaiempire's excellent website. The trunk is maybe not 3 inches. But taper is much stronger than anything you would find in the valleys. On top of the mountain however..
My larch "potatoe with leaves", which has a 3 inch base, but is still in development and needs a lot of rootwork still (Needs to sit lower still; just did not have a suitable pot this spring for proper planting. Still annoyed!):
As you see, taper is much more dramatic than indicated before. I think to make convincing images one needs to start with a solid trunk. Build from there. Chopping is going to set the process of thickening back a lot. So only chop when the basic thickness of the tree is nearing what you want at that point. (The new leader will in the first years have very little effect on thickening of the lower parts). Then make a series of chops. 2-3 is on the low side. The more chops, the smoother the trunk taper will become.
Bonsai_Bentley
Mame
Nah, it's cool. I prefer principals as every tree is different. I'm not necessarily going for a 3" base. I'm shooting for a 3' (foot) tree. That's just kind of a generality. I'm not going to be sitting there with a tape measure waiting for it to get to exactly 3 feet tall.
Bonsai_Bentley
Mame
Yeah, this was part of my initial plan. Replant in the spring and make sure I get the roots sorted out while I'm at it. I'm trying to decide what sort of pot to put it into next. I need the redwood to be portable until I can figure out what it can tolerate this summer and where the best spot may be in my yard. If the redwood needs to remain portable I have a 5g root maker pot that it can live in.
I also have a larch that's at about the same stage as my redwood. I'm planning on either putting that in a 6" root maker pot for a year or just going ahead to planting it in a grow bag.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Larix larcina needs full sun and no drought, and they don't like high humidity. That gets be an impossible combination south of ~40°N where mid-summer gets too hot. Other Larch may do better.
