Soldano666
Omono
I had some doing this clear into november last year... Not sure what it means. Hopefully it means good vigor
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
It's not a problem, just watch and enjoy what these guys are doing. Sometimes they will toss a bunch of little needles around the base of a bud like a pubescent human starting to grow pubic hair around certain parts of the anatomy.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Some unseen repot pics of the Dabber.
What a mess eh?
Dealt with!
Sorce
What a mess eh?
Dealt with!
Sorce
Looks pretty complete to me. And the new root tips all around witness how healthy it has become. Great work!
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Ok.
I saw this visual cue yesterday that I been looking for.
This reinforcement of buds at the tip.
This one decided to go threefer.
And this one elongated a bit and tapered out.
The Mugo files say Vance cuts em in July.
And I've heard him tell somone do it before the end of August.
I got to thinking about the NATURAL RYTHYM of the tree and how to best utilize it for our purposes.
It is very important to note, that this theory is NOT based on Bonsai, it's based on the NATURAL RYTHYM of the tree and how to utilize it best for our purposes in Bonsai.
As single flush pines, if we consider these 2 season pines, this theory is easier to understand.
A simpler rythym.
The conversation in the tree, as it would be on the mountain, is as follows.
What happened this winter, what have I lost, and what must I do to grow best this year?
What happened this summer, what have I lost, and what what must I do to grow best next season.
That's it. Simple.
Not!
This time right now is the time it has had, or is having, its internal conversation, and deciding what to do. It's already unsafe to cut for bonsai purposes.
But to dive deeper into perfecting timing, and gather as much energy as possible, to keep foliage growing roots all summer..
I propose not to cut in July, but rather, waiting till a week before this "conversation" happens.
Before this ONE VERY PARTICULAR TIME in the trees NATURAL RYTHYM, I believe we are merely confusing it.
Which I think is what causes those little "yeah I got energy" spurts of fake second growth...
Which looks like the same Juvenile foliage JBP throws when it is stressed. Hint hint.
Yes we see buds form, or pop, or this fake second flush, after a July cut. Summer damage happens on the mountain too.
But come back down off the mountain...
We are doing bonsai.
That is not what we want.
We want to wait for it to have stored ALL the energy it possibly can before this one particular time in its NATURAL RYTHYM when this conversation happens, so we can allow the tree to have a Bigger Conversation!
More healthy buds!
That alone should gather enough energy to then take advantage of the PROPOSED SPRING PRUNING. *
This one is deeper.
Haven't quirked it out, or seen the season natural enough to study it well yet, but here it is.
When I cut branches in spring, which hasn't been timed or figured, more just clean up to see in when you buy it cuts...
So far just....unneeded big branch removal...
Those actions in spring have created buds further in the interior.
Those cuts made the tree send buds where there were no needles....
Why?
And how to better understand it to utilize this side of the natural rythym?
Because I haven't noticed this further interior budding in July....
I think the tree conversation if cut in spring, before growth starts, goes like this....
What the Fuck? I lost that giant branch out there this winter? Fuck that, I gotta grow back closer to the safety of my trunk.
Hence....better far interior backbudding with spring cutting!
*Proposed Spring Pruning
What of the energy right?
If we look at the NATURAL RYTHYM of these single flush pines...
And the facts of their natural environment, we have a tree which, in nature produces one flush of growth, to sustain it through both these seasons.
Here's my Anti Bow Tie Statement....
One flush of growth, Plus older needles, is what gets this tree all the way thru 2 seasons.
This wasn't supposed to pop up in this storm, but here it is....
I understand why to "bow tie", or remove top and bottom growing needles to better allow light into the tree.
But I understand better why I can't bring myself to do it...
And likely never will.
The "system".
In that Scots video with Ryan Neil, he talks about the tree being a system. Leaving branches on to support the system. This branch feeds the roots which in turn feed that part of the tree which we intend to keep etc.
So in an effort to bonsai with all the energy possible...
Why not just leave all them needles and uneccesary buds on till these obvious 2 action times?
I personally don't have any areas that would benefit any other part of the tree if I removed them.
And none of them are causing knuckles.....
So I say again...and again and again....
Don't Mindlessly remove up and down growth.
ATTENTION TO DETAIL.
We got these newbs removing up and down growth like it's the God Damn plague!
The fact that a Mugo branch can be twisted to make up and down growth side by side growth is just one fact that says we may have had a better branch pattern had we not removed all those options.
I can not be the only perfectionist, who knows perfect doesn't exist, but decides to give it a go anyway.
Oh...what I'm trying to say is....
We are not allowing these single flush pines to make it all the way thru these 2 seasons on old needles and one flush of growth with their natural maximum energy.
Especially if we are Always removing needles that don't necessarily need removal, AND cutting off all the new growth in July which is one to two months too early, and seemingly a uneccesary stressor.
Again, I haven't figured this heavier spring cut thing fully yet, but I am working on coming up with some solid observations to continue perfecting these trees I love so much.
Maybe give em a summer action rest, to hit em hard in spring.
Maybe not removing needles and waiting till the last minute to perform summer action will give them enough energy to hit em hard in spring.
What is fact...
In nature they have enough energy for these twice yearly damages.
And we have been removing more energy than necessary.
This is why There IS MORE!
Not to mention when I first got that Pugo Mine, I figured it was gonna take way longer to make into a tree...
But in gathering information from every angle...
And applying it, that tree is shaping up faster than I ever expected.
I still feel like a dick for suggesting Vance may have flaws.
Flaws defined as, just general bad old school bonsai practices he was unable to shake while being a Mugo badass!
Anyway, in feeling bad, I thought about how I shouldn't feel bad.
Cuz when Vance got to talking about a new understanding of wiring, I got mad excited that we may get to view his trees might get that much doper!
Hoping you folks knew I wasn't provoking Ill attitude, or young buck disrespect, I realized that if I can provoke Lord Mugo with thought as to become Mugo Overlord...
I'm like fuck it...keep typing!
To Vance !
To Mugo !
To baseball.....
Sorce
I saw this visual cue yesterday that I been looking for.
This reinforcement of buds at the tip.
This one decided to go threefer.
And this one elongated a bit and tapered out.
The Mugo files say Vance cuts em in July.
And I've heard him tell somone do it before the end of August.
I got to thinking about the NATURAL RYTHYM of the tree and how to best utilize it for our purposes.
It is very important to note, that this theory is NOT based on Bonsai, it's based on the NATURAL RYTHYM of the tree and how to utilize it best for our purposes in Bonsai.
As single flush pines, if we consider these 2 season pines, this theory is easier to understand.
A simpler rythym.
The conversation in the tree, as it would be on the mountain, is as follows.
What happened this winter, what have I lost, and what must I do to grow best this year?
What happened this summer, what have I lost, and what what must I do to grow best next season.
That's it. Simple.
Not!
This time right now is the time it has had, or is having, its internal conversation, and deciding what to do. It's already unsafe to cut for bonsai purposes.
But to dive deeper into perfecting timing, and gather as much energy as possible, to keep foliage growing roots all summer..
I propose not to cut in July, but rather, waiting till a week before this "conversation" happens.
Before this ONE VERY PARTICULAR TIME in the trees NATURAL RYTHYM, I believe we are merely confusing it.
Which I think is what causes those little "yeah I got energy" spurts of fake second growth...
Which looks like the same Juvenile foliage JBP throws when it is stressed. Hint hint.
Yes we see buds form, or pop, or this fake second flush, after a July cut. Summer damage happens on the mountain too.
But come back down off the mountain...
We are doing bonsai.
That is not what we want.
We want to wait for it to have stored ALL the energy it possibly can before this one particular time in its NATURAL RYTHYM when this conversation happens, so we can allow the tree to have a Bigger Conversation!
More healthy buds!
That alone should gather enough energy to then take advantage of the PROPOSED SPRING PRUNING. *
This one is deeper.
Haven't quirked it out, or seen the season natural enough to study it well yet, but here it is.
When I cut branches in spring, which hasn't been timed or figured, more just clean up to see in when you buy it cuts...
So far just....unneeded big branch removal...
Those actions in spring have created buds further in the interior.
Those cuts made the tree send buds where there were no needles....
Why?
And how to better understand it to utilize this side of the natural rythym?
Because I haven't noticed this further interior budding in July....
I think the tree conversation if cut in spring, before growth starts, goes like this....
What the Fuck? I lost that giant branch out there this winter? Fuck that, I gotta grow back closer to the safety of my trunk.
Hence....better far interior backbudding with spring cutting!
*Proposed Spring Pruning
What of the energy right?
If we look at the NATURAL RYTHYM of these single flush pines...
And the facts of their natural environment, we have a tree which, in nature produces one flush of growth, to sustain it through both these seasons.
Here's my Anti Bow Tie Statement....
One flush of growth, Plus older needles, is what gets this tree all the way thru 2 seasons.
This wasn't supposed to pop up in this storm, but here it is....
I understand why to "bow tie", or remove top and bottom growing needles to better allow light into the tree.
But I understand better why I can't bring myself to do it...
And likely never will.
The "system".
In that Scots video with Ryan Neil, he talks about the tree being a system. Leaving branches on to support the system. This branch feeds the roots which in turn feed that part of the tree which we intend to keep etc.
So in an effort to bonsai with all the energy possible...
Why not just leave all them needles and uneccesary buds on till these obvious 2 action times?
I personally don't have any areas that would benefit any other part of the tree if I removed them.
And none of them are causing knuckles.....
So I say again...and again and again....
Don't Mindlessly remove up and down growth.
ATTENTION TO DETAIL.
We got these newbs removing up and down growth like it's the God Damn plague!
The fact that a Mugo branch can be twisted to make up and down growth side by side growth is just one fact that says we may have had a better branch pattern had we not removed all those options.
I can not be the only perfectionist, who knows perfect doesn't exist, but decides to give it a go anyway.
Oh...what I'm trying to say is....
We are not allowing these single flush pines to make it all the way thru these 2 seasons on old needles and one flush of growth with their natural maximum energy.
Especially if we are Always removing needles that don't necessarily need removal, AND cutting off all the new growth in July which is one to two months too early, and seemingly a uneccesary stressor.
Again, I haven't figured this heavier spring cut thing fully yet, but I am working on coming up with some solid observations to continue perfecting these trees I love so much.
Maybe give em a summer action rest, to hit em hard in spring.
Maybe not removing needles and waiting till the last minute to perform summer action will give them enough energy to hit em hard in spring.
What is fact...
In nature they have enough energy for these twice yearly damages.
And we have been removing more energy than necessary.
This is why There IS MORE!
Not to mention when I first got that Pugo Mine, I figured it was gonna take way longer to make into a tree...
But in gathering information from every angle...
And applying it, that tree is shaping up faster than I ever expected.
I still feel like a dick for suggesting Vance may have flaws.
Flaws defined as, just general bad old school bonsai practices he was unable to shake while being a Mugo badass!
Anyway, in feeling bad, I thought about how I shouldn't feel bad.
Cuz when Vance got to talking about a new understanding of wiring, I got mad excited that we may get to view his trees might get that much doper!
Hoping you folks knew I wasn't provoking Ill attitude, or young buck disrespect, I realized that if I can provoke Lord Mugo with thought as to become Mugo Overlord...
I'm like fuck it...keep typing!
To Vance !
To Mugo !
To baseball.....
Sorce
Victorim
Omono
If mike turns up at your door just run! 
I see what you mean, but in regards to bowtie, is it not just the difference between controling growth rather that dealing with it? (Mugo novice dissclamer)
I see what you mean, but in regards to bowtie, is it not just the difference between controling growth rather that dealing with it? (Mugo novice dissclamer)
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
If mike turns up at your door just run!
I see what you mean, but in regards to bowtie, is it not just the difference between controling growth rather that dealing with it? (Mugo novice dissclamer)
I don't really understand what you mean...
Or,
The answer is very long!
Short answer...
I think there is a difference between control and ultimate control.
Somehow,
Until we let go of "control".
We can not obtain "ultimate control".
I guess I'll say this too.
Uh...no....
Not yet !
Sorce
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
Quince
Mame
Damn Source!
Those are some keen observations, and theories too. Now for the experiments. With Vances years of experience and our combined innovative capacity, gonna dial this in and take the train to a higher level for sure.
Quince
Mame
Hey Vance,
I'm looking at a Nordmann fir that is about half the size of Leonardb's but similar in many ways. Do you have any experience with the abies bark. Does mature bark develop similar to a mugo, or is it a not in my lifetime kind of thing?
Speaking of twisting mugo's this is the before and after Vance styled my mugo at the show this year ( early August! ). Boy, was I wringing my hands and sweating. Still looks heart and healthy.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
A week or so ago here on the train I think.
Hope yall quit bickering...
I just silently procured new evidence that Vance may in fact have been setting himself up for that God Damn pillory all along.
But if I provoked any change their how the hell could I enjoy Vance for that 100% Vance quality...saying whatever the hell he feels whenever the hell he feels it!
I'd rather hit myself in the face with the garbage can lid!
Where's our boy with the Downhill mugo and the horse talk?
Or am I confusing 2 Rick's?
Vance is like an old workhorse where, if you "Let him out to pasture", he'll trot in the house, sit on the couch, and give you a look like....
What the Fuck were you thinking there feller?
Sorce
f1pt4
Chumono
That looks to me like 3/4 of foliage gone in one prune. I didn't know @Vance Wood sanctioned such heavy prunes.
I thought 50% was the max?
Regardless I like the after.
That was my first reaction as well. I think the thought was that if the branches remain with reduced foliage that the support system of the whole is threatened. The branches that remain have more than enough foliage to sustain the plant. Since this is the first styling, there are a few years of more growth and tertiary branches to develop before final style reveals itself. And then of course all those stumps will use that time to reduce down and develop that beautiful trunk!
That is the plan anyway. Will have to post each spring and fall to monitor my progress.
Thanks for the encouragement.
Leonard
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
@sorce
You do realize that pines have needles on the sides too right? They have needles around the whole branch where there are needles.
I think you need to go back and read what Vance has said about it.
The reason we remove up and down needles is to control energy and direct growth. They are more likely to back bud where there are needles because there are buds at the bases of the needle bundles.
In most cases we want new buds on the sides of the branches, not the top or the bottom of the branch. So we remove the top and bottom needles to prevent buds there. Also, removing some needles allows more light into the interior of the trees and to lower branches to help promote backbudding further back on the branches and to keep the lower branches stonger.
Also we really only should do this if the tree is strong and healthy already. If the tree is weak, you shouldn't be removing needles or doing any thing else until it's stronger. If the tree is strong and healthy, it can withstand removing those needles and responds with more backbudding.
You do realize that pines have needles on the sides too right? They have needles around the whole branch where there are needles.
I think you need to go back and read what Vance has said about it.
The reason we remove up and down needles is to control energy and direct growth. They are more likely to back bud where there are needles because there are buds at the bases of the needle bundles.
In most cases we want new buds on the sides of the branches, not the top or the bottom of the branch. So we remove the top and bottom needles to prevent buds there. Also, removing some needles allows more light into the interior of the trees and to lower branches to help promote backbudding further back on the branches and to keep the lower branches stonger.
Also we really only should do this if the tree is strong and healthy already. If the tree is weak, you shouldn't be removing needles or doing any thing else until it's stronger. If the tree is strong and healthy, it can withstand removing those needles and responds with more backbudding.
Sorce,
The operative word is healthy. After such drastic reduction, I thought it prudent to wait and observe when I think the tree has recovered and showing signs of vigor again.
Next spring ( late ) should be plenty of time for recovery before the needle manipulation.
Thanks for your direction.
Leonard
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
This poem is from the Poetry thread.
It is a result of the way I have been making observations this year based off of a completely rejuvenated state of...
One with my trees.
--
Potted Consciousness.
Bound.
Circles of thought.
Round.
Lost.
---
Translation...
Further translated.
Energy = Control.
More Energy=Ultimate control.
More translation.
The advent of sustainable fishing.
The advent of more bonsai control.
More translation.
Thinking outside the box only traps you in a different environment.
There is NO box.
Translation.
When the first little pig made the stick house...
It lasted till it didn't.
Those Lil pigs Probly still in that brickhouse...
Translation.
Though an excellent book.
This is not bonsai.
Sorry JKL! I'm ranting!
This is bonsai.
Yes a pen. There are no mistakes! Merely changes in direction!
More.....
Sorce
It is a result of the way I have been making observations this year based off of a completely rejuvenated state of...
One with my trees.
--
Potted Consciousness.
Bound.
Circles of thought.
Round.
Lost.
---
Translation...
Further translated.
Energy = Control.
More Energy=Ultimate control.
More translation.
The advent of sustainable fishing.
The advent of more bonsai control.
More translation.
Thinking outside the box only traps you in a different environment.
There is NO box.
Translation.
When the first little pig made the stick house...
It lasted till it didn't.
Those Lil pigs Probly still in that brickhouse...
Translation.
Though an excellent book.
This is not bonsai.
Sorry JKL! I'm ranting!
This is bonsai.
Yes a pen. There are no mistakes! Merely changes in direction!
More.....
Sorce
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
The difference between vigorous late summer growth, and stressed late summer growth.
On a heavily July 2nd pruned branch.
On an untouched sacrifice.
Curly. Straight.
On another, the one I hit hard as hell, snipping roots in late spring, cutting back in July, and wiring a little...lol! In august. Ill timed 1st work .
On the Dabber which was eff rooted.
Already shedding that Spring stress.
Due to incredible vigour.
This one, which looks more Muhgos than the pumillo, which may account for the difference...
Was treated the same as the dabber.
It just never bounced back. But it's chilling.
May have left it shaded too long. Bugs too. It went dark at the needle base, never could even change let alone grow signs of anything.
I don't call Boxwood the Broadleaf Mugo for nothing.
Mugo is constantly talking to us too.
Are we listening?
They are highly predictable.
Even more so on believe, once I start doing this in this new thought.
Proof to come.
Sorce
On a heavily July 2nd pruned branch.
On an untouched sacrifice.
Curly. Straight.
On another, the one I hit hard as hell, snipping roots in late spring, cutting back in July, and wiring a little...lol! In august. Ill timed 1st work .
On the Dabber which was eff rooted.
Already shedding that Spring stress.
Due to incredible vigour.
This one, which looks more Muhgos than the pumillo, which may account for the difference...
Was treated the same as the dabber.
It just never bounced back. But it's chilling.
May have left it shaded too long. Bugs too. It went dark at the needle base, never could even change let alone grow signs of anything.
I don't call Boxwood the Broadleaf Mugo for nothing.
Mugo is constantly talking to us too.
Are we listening?
They are highly predictable.
Even more so on believe, once I start doing this in this new thought.
Proof to come.
Sorce
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
This was the branch I "set to proper nexts" on July 2nd.
White rag July 2nd.
And as it exists today, with a bottom shot of today.
I am happy with these results, nothing short of what I wanted.
This was minorly tip pruned, and ALL the uneccesary buds and needles were removed.
There is growth left on top for back fill branches when it is wired down in the future.
Where do these come from if we remove all the top and bottom growth?
I feel if I would have waited a little longer, I could have promoted more backbuds. But I am happy with this. A timed tool.
I only wish I would have lopped that heavy branch in May!
Spring Pruning Theory evidence next.
Sorce
White rag July 2nd.
And as it exists today, with a bottom shot of today.
I am happy with these results, nothing short of what I wanted.
This was minorly tip pruned, and ALL the uneccesary buds and needles were removed.
There is growth left on top for back fill branches when it is wired down in the future.
Where do these come from if we remove all the top and bottom growth?
I feel if I would have waited a little longer, I could have promoted more backbuds. But I am happy with this. A timed tool.
I only wish I would have lopped that heavy branch in May!
Spring Pruning Theory evidence next.
Sorce
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
Similar threads
