barrosinc
Masterpiece
Are you referring to miracle-gro? It seems to be a brand.
Is it those typical different color chemical balls that you spread over the soil?
Basically big box cheap fertilizer?
rhizotonic, do you use it?
- Thread starter barrosinc
- Start date
Is it those typical different color chemical balls that you spread over the soil?
Basically big box cheap fertilizer?
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
I don't spread a thing on the soil surface. Miracle gro is a brand of water soluble fertilizer. Mix it up nice and thick in a watering can and pour it in.
No poo. No magical claims. No mess. Just growth.
barrosinc
Masterpiece
bummer, I don't think we have anything similar (cheap).
Waltron
Chumono
Very cool, I collect bear re curves, I would love to have a kodiak in my collection someday, I just dont have the confidence in my shooting ability to bring them in the deer woods, however, if I have a tag left after bow season, ill be using my TC hawken side lock muzzle loader for all of gun season. I do shoot compound and you are right about them, im on a 5 year streak of bow kills.. though they have all been 8 or 9 pointed 2.5 year old deer. This year im pursuing only mature bucks 3.5 years or older, which is a almost literally an entirely different animal in high pressured areas, there are a lot of pro's, who are likely paid by scent lok, preaching about it, however, there have been court cases full of scientific research that rule in their favor in all cases. basically the idea is you dont have to play the wind, which not being tied to wind direction can be critical when pursuing mature whitetail with a bow, anyway I digress.
I could see Rock singing acapello to his azalea, and busting out his fiddle made from petrified ginko wood and playing devil goes down to georgia for his bald cypress twice and week and 3 times before midnight on the full moon, all with a stuffy nose from riding the 8822 railroad.
Waltron
Chumono
you have well water I assume Mike, that is good stuff, but using it the way you do could lead to problems for anyone using water that is not ideal PH, or already contaminated with salt and chlorine and other things. There are benefits from having some type of organic ferts in the regimen once in a while, would you agree? do you think that there is no better alternative or additive that would be even better than just the miracle gro? surely you dont feed the jacks the same as you would an elm? what about when you get to refinement stages? simply lowering the dosage cant be your only plan?
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Plants cannot tell the difference between "organic" and "inorganic" N P r
You don't have to play the wind that much if you're using a compound or a gun. With a #50 recurve you have to get in close, within 40 yards or less, preferably. Playing the wind, sound, and terrain are all part of getting in close. Part of traditional bowhunting is knowing how to do that. I'd say if you have to use expensive gear to do it you might as well use a .243 or a Bear Cruzer and not a recurve or longbow.
You don't have to play the wind that much if you're using a compound or a gun. With a #50 recurve you have to get in close, within 40 yards or less, preferably. Playing the wind, sound, and terrain are all part of getting in close. Part of traditional bowhunting is knowing how to do that. I'd say if you have to use expensive gear to do it you might as well use a .243 or a Bear Cruzer and not a recurve or longbow.
Waltron
Chumono
Yes, you are very right, you must get in close, and for the record, a 40 yard shot is at the verge of an ethical shot with my compound, certainly a re curve. I probably wouldn't take a 40 yard shot with my compound, general rule is 35 and in, maybe 40 if broadside is presented. pulling any bow back and the movent involved in doing so is not conducive to killing deer. getting close to regular deer can be rather easy, I am an experienced bow hunter, I climb trees very high and hang from a tree saddle, I've killed many coyotes, which are very hard to get close to, one with my bow. I killed a 5 point yearling from within 5 yards, from the ground, with my bow, a couple years ago becasue I was literally in danger. all without scentlok mind you. mature bucks (4 years and older) are very different, they can smell where you have walked hours later, and wont forget it, they notice trimmed branches, can smell over 400 yards, will check wind currents and wont leave thick cover without checking the wind full circle from all directions, will not feed on bait piles(shady hunting tactic) during day light becasue they associate with danger, will alter their entire routine or core area if they smell a person in the woods, and are basically nocturnal. one of the most intelligent animals to walk to earth is a mature whitetail buck, they have one fatal downfall, the breeding season. it causes them to throw caution to the wind and they cannot control it due to the hormones and testosterone. There is new research on the moon phase which can predict the short period of estrus, which is said to be triggered by the 2nd full moon after the autumn equinox. during this time mature whitetail bucks will move in the daylight hours in search of a doe in estrus, and is the time when ametuer hunters get lucky.
scent lok uses activated carbon to filter out human smell, which has been proven in testing, but also other areas which is why I am a believer in it. activated carbon is used in growing industry, fish tank, filers, ever heard of a diaper genie? yup you guessed it carbon filter.. works like nothing else. and ive seen it work.. the basic idea is that air passes through carbon and it strips the smell away and retains the molecules. I've seen a grow tent full of giant cannabis plants ready to be picked, and was unaware they were in there until the tent was opened. now if you have ever smelled cannibis, hard to say with you but i assume you have, well anyway, 1 very small cannabis plant that has just started to begin flowering, hidden in a basement of a large house, will make the entire house smell like there is a jungle of weed growing and being smoked in the living room. anyway, if you create a vaccum inside the tent that passes through carbon(surrounded by perforated metal I might add) then exhausted outside the tent, it plain and simple removes all the smell from within the tent. the patented activated carbon inside the scent lok clothing works as a carbon filter, and can be reactivated through a very high heat cycle in the dryer to remove the molecules and make them ready to absorb more scent. when used correctly it will remove the need to hunt up wind, I will relate this to bonsai, as I am a believer in the use of carbon or charcol in bonsai for its filtering abilities. the japanese use it in the mix, and in the bottom of the pots to filter out "bad stuff", and I have adopted this idea to my bonsai as well.
the moral of the story is this, yes there are gimmicks, and conclusions that are drawn from flawed or misinterpreted data. And it's driven by the dollars involved with such a breakthrough,and scammers related to th the huge market, or desire for such a thing to exist and work. Every new and groundbreaking product must and should be able to hold up against scrutiny and unbiased intelligent testing, nay sayers are necessary for research. You stated it doesn't work that way for you (regarding humic and rhiztonic) and that is valuable info for me. At the same time there is a difference between doubt, and being closed minded, and presenting research and data proving one way or another helps the argument. This carbon example, in my opinon, shows that some things do actually work, and are groundbreaking great new things that make you rethink years of practice. all im saying is that there are some new, never before practiced, great methods out there that are possible and great, there are many that are gimmicks, but eventually someone is going to figure something new out that works, and when they do, im going to jump on board, not because they said it works, but becasue ive tried it and seen results myself. hoping and wishing that something easy like rhiztonic and humic acid are those, is not such a naive way of thinking, though does leave me vulnerable to being a sucker, but thats the price ill pay. (not for rhiztonic though)
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Well, I knew this criticism of being closed minded would come up. However, who is being close minded? I have tried humic acid, etc. Found they didn't do all that much, if anything for the money. The science, according to more than one or two unbiased researchers, isn't there to support it. Might work for crops and field grown plants, but in bonsai applications, not worth the money.
Being open minded is one thing, but like the old saying goes "if you keep your mind sufficiently open, people will throw a lot of garbage into it." The trick is to be skeptical, keep an open mind, but also keep in mind, especially with retail and politics, that someone is mostly trying to sell you something.
Being open minded is one thing, but like the old saying goes "if you keep your mind sufficiently open, people will throw a lot of garbage into it." The trick is to be skeptical, keep an open mind, but also keep in mind, especially with retail and politics, that someone is mostly trying to sell you something.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Max. It's just fertilizer. Inorganic,water soluble. You got to have something similar.
Of course I feed pines the same as elms. No organic anything here. I blast them all with the same mix. And I give it to them when they are dryed out some so they suck in a big shot. Sometimes twice per week if I'm at the house on a Wednesday.
Plus in bonsai pots being refined or just grown out its the same. I use that mix on collected trees too. Right away.
My trees grow excellent are in great shape. I wouldn't change a thing. I have never even considered it.
Waltron
Chumono
didnt mean to call you close minded, I did not mean it that way, you are skeptic, as am I, and I respect and appreciate that about you. I love that saying, and its very very true. bottom line you tried it, didn't work, you reported back to me, boom value. but im a true skeptic, in the sense, that i dont know exactly the process you chose to conduct your experiment, and im skeptical that your experiment was conducted in a manner that may have produced positive results is all. I believe you though, and your experiment is valuable data to my own research, say I conduct my own experiment and see similar results, well then im fully convinced. it ddint work for me and rock and worked for everyone else well im going to say me and rock are right.
same idea goes with the scent lok, which they won in civil court and federal court against consumers and competitors. they say it didnt work.. well they were wearing a scent lok coat but leaving all their skin and hair and hands and breath exposed.. well they used a flawed experiment. all im saying.
same idea goes with the scent lok, which they won in civil court and federal court against consumers and competitors. they say it didnt work.. well they were wearing a scent lok coat but leaving all their skin and hair and hands and breath exposed.. well they used a flawed experiment. all im saying.
Waltron
Chumono
valuable data, thaks for sharing. I'm nervous about the jacks due to all the hype about them being difficult, or ph or salt or fertilizer sensitive, only grow in sand yadda yadda.. dont want a flawed experiment reflecting inaccurate data so im taking it easy on the jacks but who knows that may be a flaw itself.. time will tell.
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
Look at all those words!!!! I had to give it a like!!!! I work with some guys that would need a really, really carbon heavy suit.....I call it OBO.....out of body odor...like an out of body experience!!! Phheeewwww!! No wonder they never shoot anything!!
These days I wonder if I ever get what I pay for
Waltron
Chumono
I wrote half of it while explaining manufacturing logistics on the phone to some know it all corporate purchasing agent who literally knows nothing about manufacturing.
"
OMG! Is that the best you can say? By your quote above, (if I understand the English language), you now acknowledge that it works on broccoli but you want me to prove that it will work on other plant. Do you require a species by species synopsis until you get it in your head? Seaweed extracts are proven bio-stimulants. PROVEN...BIO (=life) stimulants. A bonsai is just another plant.
Just what the hell kind of papers are you reading? And why do you believe them over the ones I provide?
Tons of the stuff is ordered every year throughout the professional horticultural and agricultural industries because they derive positive benefit from it. Do you really believe that multi million dollar industries have all been hoodwinked and they just keep coming back for the product because they have been ''told'' that it works without doing their own trials? That these people just like spending money raising their crops for no reason?
I can see that you refuse to acknowledge what is right in front of you for some unknown reason. Carry on....
OMG! Is that the best you can say? By your quote above, (if I understand the English language), you now acknowledge that it works on broccoli but you want me to prove that it will work on other plant. Do you require a species by species synopsis until you get it in your head? Seaweed extracts are proven bio-stimulants. PROVEN...BIO (=life) stimulants. A bonsai is just another plant.
Just what the hell kind of papers are you reading? And why do you believe them over the ones I provide?
I just don't know what to say anymore.
Tons of the stuff is ordered every year throughout the professional horticultural and agricultural industries because they derive positive benefit from it. Do you really believe that multi million dollar industries have all been hoodwinked and they just keep coming back for the product because they have been ''told'' that it works without doing their own trials? That these people just like spending money raising their crops for no reason?
I can see that you refuse to acknowledge what is right in front of you for some unknown reason. Carry on....
Last edited:
Another sweeping statement based on lack of knowledge or refusal to accept facts. It has been found that some plants actually prefer inorganic N (amino acids) over mineral N due to evolutionary factors brought about by environment.
I can provide papers if you want.
You need to study more.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Prove it works in inorganic, fast draining soil in a bonsai pot, that IS after all what we'd be using it for. And also show me it works beyond crop plants in a field. Bet ya can't, you're making big assumptions if you thing all soils are the same.
Dude, plants don't care about where their NPK comes from. They don't, simple as that. The argument is over fertilizer AVAILABILITY and EFFICIENCY.
http://extension.oregonstate.edu/gardening/node/955
Organics take longer for the plant to use. They're also less efficient because you have no idea of how much actual NPK is in a given dose. With free-draining bonsai soils, both of those things are big issues. The downside of "inorganic" fertilizers also rests on the soil issue. Both can be used, but both have different uses.
As for the studies you cite, some look to be sponsored by the manufacturers of the product, testimonials are advertising. Show me an independently-researched study backed by credible sources like a university (and hopefully more than two). Stop looking for studies to simply justify your opinion and cast a wider net for information. Actually READ OTHER STUFF that may contradict your opinions.
And before you say "you should do the same," I have. Noticed that most of the papers and stuff I was reading, there was some level of doubt.
As for this:
"Do you really believe that multi million dollar industries have all been hoodwinked and they just keep coming back for the product because they have been ''told'' that it works without doing their own trials? That these people just like spending money raising their crops for no reason?"
See my above comments about field growing and bonsai. They are not the same. I think BONSAI folks are swallowing a "magic pill" with this stuff and it is being marketed heavily to new audiences who make huge assumptions about it.
Well why should I prove that if that was not my assertion? However, read on...
I have already proved that it works in pots. (re-read the broccoli paper) If you wont believe anything unless I can show you a paper where it works on black pines growing in pumice and in bonsai containers, I can't do that and you know I can't. That is however a very feeble and convenient way to squirm out of an argument.
I can continue to provide you with scientific proof (meaning evidence which establishes a fact. Please try to keep that point in mind) that seaweed extracts do in fact stimulate plant growth above that in a regular feeding program.
Most studies are done with food crops because of their economical importance.
This paper demonstrates enhanced nitrate utilization and reduced chlorophyll degradation in hydroponically (inorganic media and inorganic fertilizer) grown bean plants.
http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/download/1953/1895
This paper demonstrate enhanced root and top growth and microbial activity on strawberries in peat-perlite-vermiculite and grown with inorganic fertilizers.
http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/full/10.4141/cjps2011-260#.V6p31GdumUk
This paper demonstrates increased root growth, plant quality, and subsequent survival rates in Pine seedlings.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00025373
This paper demonstrates increased cell count (among other things) in pear fruit when foliar sprayed (no soil involved) with seaweed extracts.
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...909_72.htm/links/554286220cf234bdb21a15ae.pdf
Well I didn't know we were talking about organic fertilizers but ok.....The fact the organic ferts take longer to become plant available can be used to our advantage.
So you're saying then that they would not be less efficient if we knew their NPK value? Analysis has been done on most organic fertilizers so we do know their NPK if we care to look.
(I have nothing against soluble fertilizers BTW I use them all).
Not anymore (see above)
I have shown you plenty of independent studies. I'm not trying to justify an ''opinion'' I'm trying to make you see the facts. It is not up to me to promote YOUR argument. Is it up to you to prove to me the above evidence is irrelevant.
.
I agree there is lots of crap being sold out there and also lots of overpriced things (like liquid fertilizers which are mainly water)
Seaweed extracts are not one of them.
Last edited:
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
More Grizzly bear talk please.
Sorce
Sorce
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
the grizzly I was talking about:
No grizzlies on the east coast. We do have more than a few black bear however. You should know what Walkers, Redbones, Black and Tans, and Blueticks are before attempting a bear hunt though.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Now tell me what a Blue Tick. Is so we can go bear hunting!
No wait!
Hahahaha!
I always wanted to hunt a bear with a knife.
Sorce
