sand???

[Poink88]

I agree with Vance and that is why I said "fine clay".

Re: Akadama and Kanuma...anyone remember which one of these 2 is a form of decomposed pumice? I know I've read it somewhere but cannot recall which is which. Thank you.

 

[Dan W.]

Vance, is there a good source for reading up on CEC? I have heard several professionals including yourself mention it, but I don't entirely understand it.

 

[Anthony]

By any chance does this - sand - bit have to with the original idea of using some type of loam as Bonsai soil ?

You do see it mentioned in the 1950 to say 1970's books out of Japan for those who read English.

Our local Agricultural ministry, still trains folk to use sand with a clay loam and manure for the nursery plants. However, that mix seems to work best as a ground mix and not a pot mix.

Thank you for the replies and patience extended to me.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Poink88]

Vance, is there a good source for reading up on CEC? I have heard several professionals including yourself mention it, but I don't entirely understand it.

Try this. http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ay/ay-238.html

and this. http://nmsp.cals.cornell.edu/publications/factsheets/factsheet22.pdf

 

[GrimLore]

I have a potted plum tree in nothing but Sakrete Traction Sand and it seems to be fine - not really sure why I tried it but all is well

 

[Smoke]

I have no idea what all the fuss about soil always is. Facts are facts and it has been shown that plants will thrive quite well without soil and grow quite well. Soil is just a medium to provide an interchange of air and moisture. How you do that and what you use is entirely up to any one. As long as there is air and water, the plant couldn't care less what you provide for a medium to do that, be it sand or ground up used tires.


The main point about soil is for the working man. How often he has time to water, does he water early or late in the day, does he water more than one time of day? Once these factors are reached then it is up to one to come up with a medium that will allow the medium (notice I didn't say soil) to stay moist long enough for that said working man to get the plant watered again. "THAT" is pretty much it. The rest (what you use) is all ego, hearsay, peer pressure or what ever. Just use what works for your watering schedule and quit broadcasting it to the whole world opening ones self to hundreds of opinions and ridicule.

 

[Anthony]

Smoke,

been using the same 3 ingredients since the 1980's, just varying the proportions, and still learning.

But isn't this discussion more for those new to bonsai, and to get the older heads [ you for example ] to chime in and lend some experience?

Appreciated the image, testing airpots and never thought to look under the drainage plastic - chuckle - so dense am I.
Thanks for the experience.
Good Afternoon
Anthony

 

[Smoke]

Smoke,

been using the same 3 ingredients since the 1980's, just varying the proportions, and still learning.

But isn't this discussion more for those new to bonsai, and to get the older heads [ you for example ] to chime in and lend some experience?

Appreciated the image, testing airpots and never thought to look under the drainage plastic - chuckle - so dense am I.
Thanks for the experience.
Good Afternoon
Anthony

Yes it is, but most people don't know what is going on with their plant because they have not 1. been doing it long enough, or 2. they do not have any horticultural experience about growing plants in soil in pots. There is no way anyone can give any definitive answer to soil components without knowing the parameters of how they water...and lets face it watering is terribly more important than soil mediums. In fact I would wager the soil medium is the least critical of the two. The soil has to be made to accomodate ones watering practises. Until that is established, talking about what to mix together is moot.

What I use in my pots would never work for someone with a more wet climate. My soil would be soggy all the time. My soil would break down fast in a freeze thaw environment and those familier with watering every other day back east would lose plants daily watering like that in my soil out here. My soil is perfect for me, in Fresno CA, for the way I water.

Some of this is just not doable over the internet, it takes a few years and some experimenting with mediums until what you have works for you in your locale. Use what you have localy and adjust accordingly. Don't make this harder than it is.

 

[GrimLore]

I have a potted plum tree in nothing but Sakrete Traction Sand and it seems to be fine - not really sure why I tried it but all is well

As I said - therefore I agree the plant does not care, that Plum however DOES require frequent daily water and I just fert it like all the rest with 20-20-20 at three times the dose every 10 days. When I first started reading about Bonsai I personally decided not much of anything cannot be grown hydroponically so as long as I water and fert all should be ok as long as the medium drains well. I have plants in a combo of(not measured) Fish tank type stone, Foam packing chips, and course sand - THEY DO NOT CARE! You can imagine what else I have tried just out of boredom and all kinds of crap needs disposed of. I have a 33 gallon bag of non recyclable plastic lids I will have chipped or ground up and use as well

 

[Smoke]

As I said - therefore I agree the plant does not care, that Plum however DOES require frequent daily water and I just fert it like all the rest with 20-20-20 at three times the dose every 10 days. When I first started reading about Bonsai I personally decided not much of anything cannot be grown hydroponically so as long as I water and fert all should be ok as long as the medium drains well. I have plants in a combo of(not measured) Fish tank type stone, Foam packing chips, and course sand - THEY DO NOT CARE! You can imagine what else I have tried just out of boredom and all kinds of crap needs disposed of. I have a 33 gallon bag of non recyclable plastic lids I will have chipped or ground up and use as well

There you go......


Of course one must also understand that by taking the stand I do, I open myself up to argument, ridicule, and just absolutely don't know what I am talking about. I can handle it, there are those of course who can't.

Most of this is more common sense than anything. There are actually people that think a tree root will not grow unless its covered with soil! Imagine that!

 

[GrimLore]

I do as I do and only suggest to others how to mix what they have already invested in. Myself I just use whatever. When the day comes and I have a few presentable plants I am pretty certain that traction grit with watering and fert will most likely be my choice. I am looking forward to automated watering systems when we get a different house - that is the only drawback here but won't make sense until we move.

 

[Lazylightningny]

Try this. http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ay/ay-238.html

and this. http://nmsp.cals.cornell.edu/publications/factsheets/factsheet22.pdf

Dario, excellent articles. Here's what I gleaned from reading them: (the bonsai-related comments are mine)

Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC)

• The relative ability of soil to store certain nutrients (cations).
• Soil, especially high in clay, has a negative charge. It can hold positively charged nutrients (cations) such as Ca++, Mg++, K+, NH4+, H+, Al+++, Fe++, Mn++, Zn++, Cu++, and Na+.
• These cations are easily exchangeable with other cations, and are thus readily available to the plant. As cations are absorbed by the plant or leached from the soil by water, they are replaced by other cations. Thus, the CEC represents the total amount of exchangeable cations that the soil can absorb.
• Organic matter has the highest CEC. It can have a 4-50 times higher CEC than clay. However, organic matter tends to be very small particles, which clog up bonsai soil. This is why we use larger pieces, such as composted bark.
• Clay is also made up of microscopic particles, so we use calcined clay particles such as akadama and related products.
• Sand has a very low CEC.
• The negative charge of the soil is balanced by the cations held in the soil, therefore, soil itself has no charge.
• The CEC of organic matter is pH dependent. Decomposition of organic matter causes a net negative charge. This process is pH dependent. CEC increases as pH increases.
• Cations are also acidic or basic. Common acidic cations include H+ and Al+++. Common basic ones are Ca++, Mg++, K+, and Na+. The relative proportion of acids and bases on the exchange sites determines a soil’s pH.
• Acidifying nitrogen fertilizers lower CEC.
• High CEC soil (clay, organic matter) also holds water better than low CEC soils (sand).
• Low CEC soil (high sand/low clay and organic matter) leaches cations easily.
• High CEC soil (low or no sand/high clay and organic matter) experience little leaching of cations.
• This supports the bonsai soil principles of using soil high in calcined clay and composted bark. It also seems to argue against the use of sand in bonsai soil.

I know science, but I am a beginner to bonsai. More experienced practitioners please let me know if I got this right. Why use sand or composted granite at all, if only to take up space? Why not use Haydite as a soil conditioner additive instead?

 

[Anthony]

Lazylightningny,

for fired clay, what would be the cec ?

Also how much does the cec change as the fired clay temperature goes up [ I see fired Akadama as 650 deg.C and still slowly breaking down ] ?

Also if the organic component is 4 to 50 times as high as clay, then you could use considerably less organic in the mix and still get good results?
Thanks in Advance.
Good Evening
Anthony

 

[Paradox]

There is a problem with not using Clay in your soil mix, clay is one of the most stable substrates with a CEC which is necessary for soil stability. The problem is finding a source of clay that wont break down and that is why we use things like Turface and Akadam.

The problem is, I can't get adakama, turface, drystall or any other clay product besides cat litter anywhere within a 100 miles. One place sells a soil mixture for $14 for one gallon and Id need a hell of a lot more than that to fill the training pots my trees are in. I am not willing to pay a truckload of cash to buy and ship it here.

Long Island is a giant economy size pile of sand and gravel with very little loam. We have extensive pitch pine and oak forests that seem to grow quite well. Also, people seem to be able to grow trees and shrubs around here with few issues. If I need to remortgage my house buy expensive, imported chunks of clay just to grow trees, then this hobby isn't for me. So far though the evidence suggests that I don't need to do that.

 

[Adair M]

Have you tried lava? There is a product (comes in 50 lb sacks) they use to top dress baseball field pitching mounds. It's pea size round lava. It's distributed from New Jersey. Google "Clay King" or "Beam Clay".

One of the problems with "sand" is it is a sharp sided particle. As it settles, it tends to fill all the air space. Contrast that with round particles. Think of a bucket of golf balls. No matter what happens, there is still lots of air in the bucket because the golf balls cannot settle in solidly.

I have an unlimited supply of high quality "sand". The M10 granite grit in my horse arena. I no longer use it in my bonsai mix, because it settles and fills the air voids.

 

[GerhardG]

What would be the reason for such small inorganics?

Swimming pool filter sand has been my single biggest bonsai discovery to date......and I've never-ever seen cuttings take easier than in straight, coarse sand!

 

[Anthony]

A little looking last night - Good Morning. Anthony

From Australia -

[1] Sand - less than 2 meq [ millequivalent ] per 100 gms - Shift here to rounded silica based round gravel at 4 to 5mm's in size [ does Lava fit here ?]

[2 ] Clay - depends on type - 10 for kaolinite, 25 for illite 100 for smectite [ bentonite for example ] - Shift here to fired, but porous clays.

[3 ] Organic - between 250 to 400. compost or compost tea [ humic stuff ]

So essentially, you can blend the above back and forth to suit, the humidty of your climate and use small quantities of organic to hold the fertilizer, bearing in mind that the fertiliser in the water will be absorbed into the fired but porus clays as well.

Remembering the ball bearing idea [ golf balls in a bucket ] and air spaces.

______________________________________________________________________

Also -Quote - May 20th 2012 B.S.G - " Well not exactly...


While clay in general has the ability to hold nutrients akadama has a poor coeffecient. Its CEC is rather low as compared to other soil products. What akadama does well is work in conjunction with organic based fetilizers. The humates in the organic fertilizer help to change the ionic composition of the clay and allow it to hold on to the fertilzer ions.

Using akadama with chemical fertlizers would be more akin to Ryan's analogy.

Akadama on its own is really nothing and does nothing better than a hundred other soils would do. Introducing organic fertilizer or the additions of humates such as leonardite complete this complex exchange. This would be a lot of the reason sections of the country give akadama such a bad rap and say its not worth the money becuase either they do not use humates nor use organic fertilizers. In that case akadama really is not worth the money.

I prefer it because I fertilize heavily with humates and organic fertilizers. With liberal additions of humates one can even make lava work like akadama. With lava having absolutly no CEC capability, the additions of humates can make lava hold on to fertilizer ions easily.

Also, additions like fir bark which may have a higer coeffecient do not add to the soil and some respects make it worse due the high absorption of nitrogen in the decay process. The last thing we want to do is add anything that absorbs nitrogen. But having organics in a soil mix is not necessarily a bad thing. It just has to be composted to the point it is releasing humates and not robbing nitrogen. This means it has to be past the point of rotton and now almost soil. It should smell good and smell like mushrooms. At that point there is nothing on earth as good as this black gold. It will clog a pot though and that brings up a whole new thread!

Later, Al"

There is also an image of Mr. Keppler with his bag of Black Gold.

 

[Beetleman72]

Woah! This thread just blew my mind. It seems that I owe my high school chemestry teacher an apology as I told him at one point that I would never need to know anything that I learned in that class. Well I was wrong haha. So what I'm getting out of this thread is that the best soil mix would be one composed mainly of fired clay balanced with organics to increase the CEC, however the organic material has to be kept in check so that it doesn't clog the air space in the soil, and also holds water for an ammount of time appropriate to your climate and watering habits.does this seem like a reasonable summary to take away from this thread?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I think the key to maintaining air space is to make sure the particle size is uniform.

Back to the bucket of golf balls analogy. The air voids are the spaces between the golf balls.

Sand, if it is a fairly uniform particle size, even a fine sand will have a fair amount of air voids if the particle size is uniform.

If there is a range of particle sizes, the finer particles will fill the voids.

For myself, anything that goes through a peice of window screen is too fine to use. The components don't matter that much. Uniformity of particle size does.

Vance is right, what you use is not that important if you figure out what the watering frequency needs to be.

 

[markyscott]

Woah! This thread just blew my mind. It seems that I owe my high school chemestry teacher an apology as I told him at one point that I would never need to know anything that I learned in that class. Well I was wrong haha. So what I'm getting out of this thread is that the best soil mix would be one composed mainly of fired clay balanced with organics to increase the CEC, however the organic material has to be kept in check so that it doesn't clog the air space in the soil, and also holds water for an ammount of time appropriate to your climate and watering habits.does this seem like a reasonable summary to take away from this thread?

Rather than thinking about what is "best", I think what you should consider that the substrate you use goes hand-in-hand with the care you have to give. They aren't separable. I like to use a well-draining, low CEC, inorganic mix. Doing so increases aeration, reduces the risk of overwatering, reduces soil compaction, and gives me more control over the availability of fertilizer. But that also means I have to fertilize and water much more frequently. If you add organics you tend to increase water retention, increase CEC, and decrease drainage which, in turn, changes your watering and fertilizing regimen. So instead of thinking about the "best" mix (that always causes these threads to go down in flame wars), think instead about what would work for the care you can give in your environment. In the dog days of summer in Houston (zone 9a), some of my trees need to be watered three times a day.

People grow trees successfully in many different substrates, but you'll find people reluctant to make a recommendation to you because your success with their mixture depends on variables outside of their control. Namely you and your local climate.

Scott