Why satsuki

[snox]

I am thinking about trying my hand at azelias and seems that satsuki are very common , is there any particular reason for that or is a common dwarf variety just as good.
I just don't see paying money for a satsuki when a common dwarf is a lot cheaper here in the UK .
Keen to learn more before I jump in .

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

There are a lot of reasons to have azaleas in one’s collection, given horticultural requirements can be met,

TNTT. The proliferation of these plants on site should give you a hint they work well for hobbyists.

It really doesn’t matter which type of azalea one purchased among R Kuisianum, Kurume, or Satsuki sort of blooming time. Satsuki usually being the latest bloomer… and in the UK perhaps that’s a good reason.

That said most satsuki are bred over the years for the bonsai trade. Respond well to good technique and with help can provide a decent fairly quickly.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[snox]

Glad I asked as I didn't realise satsuki bloomed later which yeah being in the UK is a definite plus . On and what is tntt.

 

[rockm]

Glad I asked as I didn't realise satsuki bloomed later which yeah being in the UK is a definite plus . On and what is tntt.

Satsuki literally means “fifth month”

Satsuki play by some rules that don’t apply to other typical bonsai subjects to get blooms and maintain them. Takes a bit to get those additional rules under your belt but once you do they’re not all that difficult. They can become an obsession if your not careful

 

[Glaucus]

Satsuki is it's own hobby. People grow satsuki. And then they grow some as bonsai and some as flower display trees.
The reason why it is hard to mix in other azaleas is because the other azaleas mostly flower weeks earlier. And therefore, they cannot be part of the same exhibition events.
Another reason is that at satsuki shows, in flower or out of flower, the trees must be of cultivar registered with the satsuki society. If not, the tree isn't technically allowed in.
I guess there could be non-satsuki azaleas or rhododendron entered in non-satsuki bonsai shows by people who just happen to do bonsai, not satsuki, and who just end up getting good material of this non-satsuki rhododendron.
I do not know how often that happens. Rhododendron yamadori usually are not good bonsai material no matter what the species, because they are shurbs, not trees. But landscape plants that end up getting pruned for decades may be much better material. When displayed in autumn at a bonsai show, it wouldn't matter if satsuki hobbyists thought it was a proper cultivar allowed in their hobby. I could see some bonsai artists in Japan, who don't do satsuki and have no real connection with that branch of the hobby, trolling a bit and displaying a non-satsuki rhododendron and breaking all of the norms that satsuki people like. Just not really aware of it. When I see kokufu videos, I see some satsuki, of common cultivars, as they would appear at satsuki shows. But I don't see other rhododendrons or azaleas.

Satsuki does not literally mean fifth month. The fifth month of the Japanese lunar calender is named after the rice seedlings they plant in that month, namely 早苗 or 'sanae'.
This was somehow bastardized into the kanji 皐 with the pronunciation just 'sa'. With 'tsuki' from 月 being the other character, for month or moon. The kanji 皐 also has its own meaning, namely swamp or shore.
This same month in the lunar calender also has an alternative name, which is 五月, pronounced 'gogatsu'. And this does literally mean 'fifth month'.

This is a bit like having a berry shrub that gives berries in september, and calling it 'September berry' and then saying it means '9th month berry' only to find out that 'september' literally means something else, namely 'seven'.

 

[Paradox]

I think its also because many Satsuki varieties have smaller leaves which lends itself to bonsai better than other kinds.
I know most keep them for the flowers but the smaller leaves make for a nicer plant after the flowers are gone

 

[shinmai]

There’s another significant difference worth mentioning. Dwarf varieties usually produce monochromatic blooms, as do the standard varieties of domestic landscape azaleas.. Satsuki, on the other hand, have the ability to produce solid pink or lavender, solid white, and patterned blooms on the same tree at the same time.

 

[Glaucus]

This is not actually true.
There are many kurume, ryukyu and indica varieties that are very multicoloured:

Vittatum, Azalea indica azalea - Azalea Variety Database

Vittatum Azalea indica azalea variety. This profile shows some characteristics and the parentage of this hybrid.Seedling of 'R. mucronatum'

azaleadatabase.com

Imayonishiki, Kurume azalea - Azalea Variety Database

Imayonishiki Kurume azalea variety. This profile shows some characteristics and the parentage of this hybrid.

azaleadatabase.com

Ranbu, Kurume azalea - Azalea Variety Database

Ranbu Kurume azalea variety. This profile shows some characteristics and the parentage of this hybrid.

azaleadatabase.com

Wakaebisu, Kurume azalea - Azalea Variety Database

Wakaebisu Kurume azalea variety. This profile shows some characteristics and the parentage of this hybrid.

azaleadatabase.com

Ryukyu Shibori, Ryukyu azalea - Azalea Variety Database

Ryukyu Shibori Ryukyu azalea variety. This profile shows some characteristics and the parentage of this hybrid.Seedling of 'R. mucronatum'

azaleadatabase.com

Comet, Belgian indica azalea - Azalea Variety Database

Comet Belgian indica azalea variety. This profile shows some characteristics and the parentage of this hybrid.

azaleadatabase.com

It is just that with a more symmetrical flower and the habit to display it on a table inside a pot, there is more synergy in having patterned blooms. Other azaleas are usually used as landscape plants and this effect becomes washed out from a distance.
And in western tastes, it was considered an unwanted flaw. There is a big debate which species or hybrid group is actually the origin of being bicolour or having variegation.

 

[snox]

Some.great info here . Out of interest would all satsuki be named varieties ? as seen this on evilbay labelled as satsuki but not a specific variety , simply satsuki

 

[Shibui]

Like all other plants, Satsuki can be grown from seed, in which case every seedling is a new cultivar.
Any existing cultivar can be grown as cuttings which will be 'clones' and therefore exactly the same as the original. If the grower does not label the plants they are still the same plant as if labelled and will have exactly the same flowers and growth pattern. Not knowing the name does not stop the plant from being Satsuki, nor does it stop it flowering.
A rose by any other name........

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Sorry => TNTT = Too numerous to tell

A couple points

There are plenty of plants sold as Satsuki that aren’t named. Witness Brussels sale catalog. These may be Satsuki that weren’t registered, label lost, or non descript azalea with some Satsuki genes from an open breeding.

There are many misleading generalizations about satsuki. Satsuki plants have the full spectrum of needle and flower sizes from very small to large. In the last 30-40 years the favored flower and leaf size) for Satsuki cultivars has shrunk quite a bit, as reflected by the new cultivars registered in the past 30+ years… but this trend appears to be changing in recent years. Also frilly showy flowers have given way to their less frilly counterparts.

Knowing the name of Satsuki cultivar can be more important than realized. To those with access to a Satsuki dictionary and @Glaucus database can obtain data on how the plant should be handled or its growth characteristics. “Hang wire early as branches are rough to set later.” “Creates thick trunk fast” “Do not fertilize after mid September as. Trunk can split in winter” (if not protected properly) “Make branches early, as branches are hard to grow later” and “Resistant to wire” are some common entries.

But as @Shibui points out, not knowing the name doesn’t stop the azalea from being a beautiful and decent bonsai.

@Glaucus is mostly correct . Satsuki is the favored show azalea in Japan. Yet other type of azaleas besides Satsuki are regularly shown in club and bonsai shows in the US as show timing varies from the Japanese shows.

An example of the variety of azaleas being shown, the Pacific Bonsai Museum this R. Kuisianum azalea is on display most years. Also a couple Hino Crimson (Kurume) azalea were recently shown in the Puget Sound Bonsai Association auction.c

- PBM azalea with Bloom just starting, (note small leaves, small flowers). While this tree would need much more attention to detail for a big show, the display does show the rugged, robust, beauty of this Kyushu or Miyama Kirishima azalea.



Almost full bloom under artificial light (note color change due to light)



Cheers
DSD sends

 

[ShimpakuBonsai]

I just don't see paying money for a satsuki when a common dwarf is a lot cheaper here in the UK .

If you want to do bonsai for cheap you should use native and local material.

But a lot of "special" species used for bonsai are more superior than native or local material and therefor more expensive.

 

[rockm]

Satsuki is it's own hobby. People grow satsuki. And then they grow some as bonsai and some as flower display trees.
The reason why it is hard to mix in other azaleas is because the other azaleas mostly flower weeks earlier. And therefore, they cannot be part of the same exhibition events.
Another reason is that at satsuki shows, in flower or out of flower, the trees must be of cultivar registered with the satsuki society. If not, the tree isn't technically allowed in.
I guess there could be non-satsuki azaleas or rhododendron entered in non-satsuki bonsai shows by people who just happen to do bonsai, not satsuki, and who just end up getting good material of this non-satsuki rhododendron.
I do not know how often that happens. Rhododendron yamadori usually are not good bonsai material no matter what the species, because they are shurbs, not trees. But landscape plants that end up getting pruned for decades may be much better material. When displayed in autumn at a bonsai show, it wouldn't matter if satsuki hobbyists thought it was a proper cultivar allowed in their hobby. I could see some bonsai artists in Japan, who don't do satsuki and have no real connection with that branch of the hobby, trolling a bit and displaying a non-satsuki rhododendron and breaking all of the norms that satsuki people like. Just not really aware of it. When I see kokufu videos, I see some satsuki, of common cultivars, as they would appear at satsuki shows. But I don't see other rhododendrons or azaleas.

Satsuki does not literally mean fifth month. The fifth month of the Japanese lunar calender is named after the rice seedlings they plant in that month, namely 早苗 or 'sanae'.
This was somehow bastardized into the kanji 皐 with the pronunciation just 'sa'. With 'tsuki' from 月 being the other character, for month or moon. The kanji 皐 also has its own meaning, namely swamp or shore.
This same month in the lunar calender also has an alternative name, which is 五月, pronounced 'gogatsu'. And this does literally mean 'fifth month'.

This is a bit like having a berry shrub that gives berries in september, and calling it 'September berry' and then saying it means '9th month berry' only to find out that 'september' literally means something else, namely 'seven'.

Satsuki - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Glaucus]

Satsuki - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Did you read the Japanese wikipedia page on their lunar calender?

 

[rockm]

Did you read the Japanese wikipedia page on their lunar calender?

Dude relax. just sayin that this is preeeety much the way it is interpreted. Regardless. Saying it’s “wrong” is inaccurate. This is one of those “bonesigh” vs “bon.sai” things.

 

[Glaucus]

I know literally every source says that satsuki means 'fifth month'. That's why I am correcting it. The month is named after rice planting. And the flower is named after the month. It just happens to also be the fifth month of the calender, And the calender also has alternative month names where every month does take the poetic name but just a blunt 'first month', 'second month', 'fifth month' name. Yes, it is true that as a given name you can have the characters 五月 with a pronunciation 'satsuki'. But as a word, 五月 is pronounced 'gogatsu' and it is not the same word as 皐月. Given names in Japanese are very often deliberately pronounced differently from the how it would be pronounced where the same characters form the word.

It is very understandable that people would explain to people that satsuki means 'fifth month' since it is also in many books. Callaham mentions it but says it is not correct, but doesn't explain why. Rick Garcia states it as the meaning as well.
It is just wrong. So I am correcting it.
It doesn't really matter either way but it is a simple thing to get correct. Just someone has to correct it.

 

[rockm]

I know literally every source says that satsuki means 'fifth month'. That's why I am correcting it. The month is named after rice planting. And the flower is named after the month. It just happens to also be the fifth month of the calender, And the calender also has alternative month names where every month does take the poetic name but just a blunt 'first month', 'second month', 'fifth month' name. Yes, it is true that as a given name you can have the characters 五月 with a pronunciation 'satsuki'. But as a word, 五月 is pronounced 'gogatsu' and it is not the same word as 皐月. Given names in Japanese are very often deliberately pronounced differently from the how it would be pronounced where the same characters a word.

It is very understandable that people would explain to people that satsuki means 'fifth month' since it is also in many books. Callaham mentions it but says it is not correct, but doesn't explain why. Rick Garcia states it as the meaning as well.
It is just wrong. So I am correcting it.
It doesn't really matter either way but it is a simple thing to get correct. Just someone has to correct it.

Your going to have to fight Chat GPT about it. good luck

 

[Glaucus]

Wait, why would you ask ChatGPT about something like this? It is a toy language model that is optimized to guess the next most probable word. It just happens to have some emergent properties while doing it.

If you prompt ChatGPT with the correct answer, it probably will start to agree with you. And it may also do is if you give a deliberate wrong answer, but insist it is correct. Especially since they tuned up the agreeable setting on the most recent version of ChatGPT.

OpenAI probably scraped most of the internet. So if you ask in English, it is going to regurgitate all the English sources it has read. Which in the context of the satsuki flowering plant, will likely not mention what I mentioned here and repeat the 'fifth month' thing. Maybe if you ask in Japanese, it will answer differently?





No idea if all the stuff that ChatGPT says here, like on Waka poetry, is correct. It may every well be. But one would only know for sure when one checks with a non-LLM source.

 

[rockm]

Sspoken like a true Luddite. You may think it’s wrong but you’re in a shrinking minority. I known how AI works. I have been writing about tech for 35 years.

Just pointing out that your crusade to “correct” what has become ingrained in so many places is a bit futile. Go right ahead and tilt at that windmill Don.

 

[Glaucus]

Yeah do you? Sorry to be snarky, but can you explain to me the difference between tensorflow and keras, without asking ChatGPT? Yeah, I am in a shrinking minority that actually knows what AI is and can use it properly. Which is truly sad.

Btw, the Luddites weren't wrong. Many of them got screwed when they got laid off. Even when technology is a net good for society, it isn't going to be automatically good for everyone. And not all tech is a net good for society.

I have been on this site since 2010. You even longer, I believe. It just sucks that now that it is 2025, people are resorting to using ChatGPT to try to argue with me.