Zelkova ROR - help needed

[Kadebe]

Last summer I bought this Zelkova ROR.
I now want to cut them back and choose a new leader, but my "artistic" eye doesn't see it yet. What do you think would be the best way to develop this tree?
For now, I see two possible fronts

360 view

Possible front 1- (for now my choise)

Possible Front 2

 

[leatherback]

I find the second front more interesting. I would however remove pretty much all branches, and start all of them from scratch..

 

[Kadebe]

My first thought was keeping lower branches as sacrifice branches. So you think I should cut them too?

 

[62veedub]

I agree

 

[Kadebe]

I agree

What do you agree on?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I would remove all of the branches in the spring, in line with what @leatherback is suggesting, and make cuttings out of several, because you are going to need to do a fair amount of root grafting.

You should always start with the roots and the nebari before you worry about the upper trunk and branches, particularly with a RoR design, since so much attention is being focused on the "believability" of the composition. Right now the tree looks like it is doing the splits on top of the rock. You have two primary roots that are far too large and thick, and not enough secondary and small rootage. The tree has no sense of age or scale... rather, it looks exactly like what it is - a sapling someone placed unnaturally on top of a rock.

I know this is harsh feedback, but if this tree were in a pot (instead of on a rock) people would be telling you immediately to consider an air-layer to get rid of the bad roots. Possible front #2 looks particularly bad... since it looks like you are highlighting a bit of male anatomy

So if you don't want to completely start over, you are going to need to do a lot of root work. That should be your primary focus right now.

 

[sorce]

I'd be in here, but not too fast, maybe cut it mid next summer. Keeping these 2 lowest pieces to keep your crown low and over the rock, roughly shaped as the rock.



Actually, I wouldn't cut it till you get more roots, I'd build a screen fence up the right, tip it this way and add more soil till you get em. Then cut it.

You don't want to have low sacs, then you'll have low scars, best to just cut back to them.

How low does the rock go?
I fear you may be working with a difficult combination. Like, the rock may be too large for an appropriate sized pot for the tree. But if you enlarge the tree, the rock will be too small for the tree.

Sorce

 

[62veedub]

What do you agree on?

I agree with Leatherback

 

[Forsoothe!]

There's a tree in them thar bushes. Ya gotta untwig it and go back far enough so there are no straight branches left, and fewer mains.

 

[Kadebe]

You should always start with the roots and the nebari before you worry about the upper trunk and branches, particularly with a RoR design, since so much attention is being focused on the "believability" of the composition. Right now the tree looks like it is doing the splits on top of the rock. You have two primary roots that are far too large and thick, and not enough secondary and small rootage. The tree has no sense of age or scale... rather, it looks exactly like what it is - a sapling someone placed unnaturally on top of a rock.

Like I said, I didn't start the tree... for now, don't even know how to start a project like this one. Will be a future project for sure

I know this is harsh feedback, but if this tree were in a pot (instead of on a rock) people would be telling you immediately to consider an air-layer to get rid of the bad roots.

No problem with the harsh feedback, the truth is the best way to learn

So if you don't want to completely start over, you are going to need to do a lot of root work. That should be your primary focus right now.

I have no problem starting all over again. I think rebuilding a bad tree is in the learning process anyway.

I'd be in here, but not too fast, maybe cut it mid next summer. Keeping these 2 lowest pieces to keep your crown low and over the rock, roughly shaped as the rock.
Actually, I wouldn't cut it till you get more roots, I'd build a screen fence up the right, tip it this way and add more soil till you get em. Then cut it.

How low does the rock go?

I was planning a repot in a lower pot this spring. Then I would also discover the height of the rock

I fear you may be working with a difficult combination. Like, the rock may be too large for an appropriate sized pot for the tree. But if you enlarge the tree, the rock will be too small for the tree.

What I wonder, which process delivers the quickest result if I want to start over and which steps should I take? And should I keep the rock?

 

[sorce]

What I wonder, which process delivers the quickest result if I want to start over and which steps should I take? And should I keep the rock?

There's no starting over from here IMO. No need anyway!

Wonder if you can't jam a thin stick up the bottom to find the rock depth.

I love the composition, as it improves.

Sorce

 

[Kadebe]

There's no starting over from here IMO. No need anyway!

Wonder if you can't jam a thin stick up the bottom to find the rock depth.

I love the composition, as it improves.

Sorce

Wil try it tomorrow.